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ATCO Shortage UK

Old 21st Jun 2018, 21:24
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Air traffic controllers are prohibited from undertaking their duties if they know or suspect that they are suffering from or, are likely to suffer from, fatigue as may endanger the safety of any aircraft. CAA have informed HSE that they view the CAP as secondary legislation (similar to an HSC ACoP) and that CAA will not grant approval or a certificate unless operators’ schemes are compliant with the CAP'
Are you fatigued?
- No.
Then carry on working.


Are you fatigued?
-Yes.
Then you have broken the law.

No one should ever say they are fatigued while in position but must be forward thinking enough to state that in X minutes they suspect they will be fatigued and require a break. It would appear to be good sense for that time to coincide with SRATCOH maximum in order to not have to try and explain this Catch22 in a court room.
i certainly don’t fancy being the first to try.
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Old 25th Jun 2018, 20:26
  #62 (permalink)  
30W
 
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Originally Posted by chevvron View Post
Gatwick DIR is operated by a different company from the Tower positions so there is no comparison.
Chev,

since the thread title is UK ATCO shortage I think my comment was entirely relevant, even if you believe it have poorly made by myself, in which case my apologies!

I’m entirely aware that service provision (sadly IMHO) at KK tower has changed from NATS. My point, if poorly made, was that NATS has also suffered ATCO shortages in its Winter service provision, however at an operational level position closures were timed as to make NO customer impact.

No bigger supporter of NATS controllers will you find in the opposite end of the RT world will you find.......

regards
30W
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Old 26th Jun 2018, 14:44
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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I support NATS controllers too; it's their HR people who are to blame for the shortage.
When I came up for retirement,(at the NATS 'standard' age of 60) I offered to stay on part time (20 hrs gross per week) as I knew my unit would be 'temporarily ' short of certificated controllers until more could be trained, (they wouldn't post my 'replacement' in until I actually left and it would take at least 6 months to train them up!) but the terms offered to me by HR were unacceptable, plus they told the pension people not to pay my pension as I was 'not retiring', something they had absolutely no right to do. 10 years on now and I understand my old unit is still short of staff.
I know of another retiree (not from my unit) who was treated a similar way and another from my old unit who was made 'an offer he couldn't refuse' to take early retirement at 55,
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Old 26th Jun 2018, 16:41
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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The UK ATCO (indeed, worldwide) shortage is not down to the NATS HR department.

For NATS-specific info, the CAA report on the Ryanair claim under Project Oberon is an interesting read.
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Old 26th Jun 2018, 17:52
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Oh yes it is Gonzo, Who do you think gives HR and recruitment advice to the NATS’ bosses. But NATS don’t have a monopoly on the reasons for ATCO shortage decisions. Serco’s HR department have behaved just as badly towards ATCOs and have done for many years. They are totally responsible for Serco’s poor recent (10 yrs) ATC mis-management (Closure of Bailbrook being a spectacular own goal). Just watch the response to this entry from the many who have been stuffed by silly HR decisions. Come on ATCOs, vent your spleen here. Don’t even start me on how the CAA have caused so many problems for airports with their years of poor decisions on allowing ATCOs from overseas, forecasting places at colleges, etc.

Fellow sufferer
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Old 26th Jun 2018, 18:25
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Southman View Post
Serco’s HR department have behaved just as badly towards ATCOs and have done for many years
Originally Posted by Southman View Post
Don’t even start me on how the CAA have caused so many problems for airports with their years of poor decisions on allowing ATCOs from overseas, forecasting places at colleges, etc.
I think this proves my point, somewhat.

There are many factors at work here, before we consider the influence on NATS' costs that the airlines have as part of the RPx consultations.

...and while we're at it:


Who do you think gives HR and recruitment advice to the NATS’ bosses
Exactly. HR carry out the decisions in terms of allowing (or not) VR, allowing (or not) part time working. Do you really think it's HR taking those decisions in the first place?
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Old 4th Jul 2018, 18:57
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Do let me 'start you', Southman, on 'how the CAA have caused so many problems for airports with their years of poor decisions on allowing ATCOs from overseas'.
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 10:28
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Southman View Post
Oh yes it is Gonzo, Who do you think gives HR and recruitment advice to the NATS’ bosses. But NATS don’t have a monopoly on the reasons for ATCO shortage decisions. Serco’s HR department have behaved just as badly towards ATCOs and have done for many years. They are totally responsible for Serco’s poor recent (10 yrs) ATC mis-management (Closure of Bailbrook being a spectacular own goal). Just watch the response to this entry from the many who have been stuffed by silly HR decisions. Come on ATCOs, vent your spleen here. Don’t even start me on how the CAA have caused so many problems for airports with their years of poor decisions on allowing ATCOs from overseas, forecasting places at colleges, etc.

Fellow sufferer
SERCO closed Bailbrook because they assumed they would be the only bidder for NATS when the Labour government ('Our sky is not for sale') decided to sell it and as NATS already had an excellent college, so why have two?
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Old 5th Jul 2018, 18:13
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Latest at TC, SRATCOH is not a regulation but a recommendation. After 2 hours the controller will be asked by the supervisor if they are happy to continue or do they need a break. Union recommendation is to ask for the break.
Completely untrue. But worth saying just to stir things, eh?
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Old 3rd Aug 2018, 20:17
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by anotherthing View Post
Completely untrue. But worth saying just to stir things, eh?
SCRATCOH is not a legal regulation - this came as news to me recently.
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Old 3rd Aug 2018, 22:09
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BwatchGRUNT View Post
SCRATCOH is not a legal regulation - this came as news to me recently.
Perhaps but it is mentioned in the CAP493: Section 8 chapter 1

Controllers, as well as unit managers, have a responsibility to ensure that they conform to the Scheme for the Regulation of Air Traffic Controllers’ Hours (SRATCOH) (CAP 670 Part D Section 2). It is particularly important that controllers who provide air traffic control services at more than one unit keep sufficient account of their periods of duty as only they will be in a position to establish that they have not breached SRATCOH.

But the ANO is not a legal document either. If you want the real law you have to view the statutory instruments as well.

But if SRATCOH is optional then what other parts of the CAP670 are? As well as internal company documents which do say that CAP670 is to be followed.
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 10:55
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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But the ANO is not a legal document either. If you want the real law you have to view the statutory instruments as well.

Since when?
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Old 6th Aug 2018, 18:52
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airac View Post
But the ANO is not a legal document either. If you want the real law you have to view the statutory instruments as well.

Since when?
https://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-ind...es-of-the-Air/
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Old 7th Aug 2018, 18:38
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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FFS try doing something illegal then

The Air Navigation Order 2016
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Old 9th Aug 2018, 18:31
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BwatchGRUNT
SCRATCOH is not a legal regulation - this came as news to me recently.
Originally Posted by terrain safe
But the ANO is not a legal document either. If you want the real law you have to view the statutory instruments as well.
If one is going to make broad, sweeping statements, particularly about legislation, it is wise to use technically correct terminology and arguments.

In the good old days, by which I mean pre-European Commission/EASA rules relating to ANS/ATS, life was simple. UK legislation (well, secondary legislation) said that if you wanted to do ATC in the UK, you had to have an 'approval' from the CAA, and that approval would be granted if the CAA was satisfied about the way you would do it.

That legislation was the Air Navigation Order. The legal, definitive version ANO is published as a Statutory Instrument. The CAA has, for many years, published a useful collection of a number of different bits of legislation related to and governing aviation activities in a document with the reference CAP393.

The CAA then published documents that described what you needed to do in order to satisfy them enough to get an approval to provide an ATS. One of these documents was CAP 670. Eventually, SRATCOH was incorporated into CAP 670.

So, to summarise, SRATCOH was never ‘law’. It was just that unless a unit applied the scheme the CAA would not be satisfied enough to grant an approval.

The CAPs are just references given to documents published by the CAA and they vary substantially in their content and its significance. But as far as ATS is concerned they are just, at best, guidance about what you need to do in order for the CAA to give you something that the law says they can or must (and by implication, would withdraw if you stop doing what the CAPs say).

Under the current legal framework the UK CAA is little more than a regional office of EASA (because it is the – or one of the – nominated Competent Authority(ies) in the UK). As such, it must (with a small number of exceptions) certify an ANSP that meets the European rules which are set out in the Essential Requirements of the EASA Basic Regulation, the Common Requirements and a few related bits of European regulation. The status of something like SRATCOH is a bit unclear – in theory, because it’s not mentioned in the European rule framework, it only applies to ATS units that are not regulated under the European rules....but these are, and always have been, outside the scope of SRATCOH anyway.

Again, in theory, the UK CAA should not normally apply higher standards to an ANSP in the UK than are required by equivalent Competent Authorities in other EU States. Although there are a small number of situations in which a Competent Authority can do something different, it is hard to imagine that anyone would try to argue that SRATCOH falls within these ‘special cases’.

I guess the only people who could tell you the status of SRATCOH today are the CAA – but based on my experience of the level of knowledge of such things in the typical inspector, I wish you good luck if you try to get a definitive answer! But if you’re the sort of person that enjoys bear-baiting, maybe it would be an enjoyable way to pass an hour or two if you have nothing else to do.

Things may get more interesting still when the ‘new’ common requirements take effect in 2020. Within the rules there are some very broad requirements for managing fatigue and for rostering schemes, together with quite a lot of ‘Acceptable Means of Compliance’ and guidance material. There’s potential for SRATCOH to gain a more defined status (certainly within the UK) if anyone has the will to try and make it so!

And there endeth what I hope is a more correct summary of the situation surrounding the ANO, CAPs and SRATCOH. Back to the ATCO shortage anyone?
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 11:54
  #76 (permalink)  
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eggp notam

b) from 18/10/17 12:17c) to: 18/10/18 23:59
e) restrictions on liverpool vfr and ifr tfc due atc controller shortages. Electronic book-outs will not be accepted. For further details ctc atc.

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Old 18th Oct 2018, 13:03
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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So the restriction ends at midnight, having been in force for 12 months?
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 15:52
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cleared For A Coffee View Post
eggp notam

b) from 18/10/17 12:17c) to: 18/10/18 23:59
e) restrictions on liverpool vfr and ifr tfc due atc controller shortages. Electronic book-outs will not be accepted. For further details ctc atc.

Farnborough North sector was closed due staffing the other weekend meaning pilots wishing to transit the Stansted TMZ had to try to call Essex Radar if they didn't have the necessary transponder.
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Old 18th Oct 2018, 15:52
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Year, month, day.
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 20:24
  #80 (permalink)  

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Like 30W I am a pilot who flies out of various London are airports, depending on where my boss wants me (corporate jet) in the last few days myself and a colleague heard of a scheme to allow non-valid controllers to vector on sectors close to their airspace due to staff shortages. I doubt this can be accurate, but it worries me sick. Is there something the pilots should know? Is our safety about to be compromised due to the p££s poor planning of NATS HR and the parsimony of the large carriers who own a chunk of NATS? I'm used to controllers giving me bad news, usually with a smile and a delay, If you don't want to be seen on here feel free to PM me.

VH
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