>250kts below FL100 Glasgow/Edinburgh

[Dinger Bell]

Just wondering if anyone can shed any light on why the UK AIP has a provision to allow greater than 250kts below FL100 (obviously with prior approval) for departures from Edinburgh but the same doesn't apply for Glasgow outbounds?

[Fletch]

On departure from EDI, do Scottish often/ever remove the limitation as per the note in the AIP?

[zonoma]

Can you provide a link to exactly which part of the UK AIP you are referring to? I've just looked at both Edinburgh and Glasgow SIDs and both state in the General Information section at the bottom the very standard phrase "Maximum 250KIAS below FL100 unless otherwise authorised." I have yet to see a UK SID chart that doesn't have that written on it.

You can see the Edinburgh SID charts on the AIS website here and the Glasgow ones are here

[Fletch]

If you look in the Textual Data section. http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2017-12-07.pdf
It's in Section EGPH AD 2.22 Flight Procedures [Subsection 7]. Page 15ish

7 Speed Limit
(a) A speed limitation of 250 kt applies to all departures following SIDs whilst flying below FL 100 unless previously removed
by ATC. ATC will endeavour to remove the speed limitation as soon as possible and will use the phrase 'No speed
restriction'. The phrase must not be interpreted as relieving the pilot of his responsibility for the observance of any noise
abatement procedures which may include a speed/power limitation.

[Glamdring]

There was a change in the last year or two that added a caveat to ATC allowing you to break the 250Kts speed limit. Basically it has to be approved in the unit's MATS Part 2. This is the reason that Edinburgh inbounds are no longer told to maintain high speed. (Although if you don't ask about it, it's not up to ATC to police it )

[EGPFlyer]

There’s a yellow AIC circular stating that ATC can remove the speed restrictions in known traffic environments so class A-D. In E, F and G you must comply at all times with 250kts below FL100

[LookingForAJob]

Perhaps the reason is the law. Take a look at SERA.6001.

[chevvron]

We've noticed an increased noise nuisance from Heathrow departures in the Woking area recently; they seem to be climbing slower than they used to especially in the evenings so although they appear to be using reduced power, to the human ear the noise level is the same so we're exposed to the noise for longer than we used to be.
Would this be due to ATC not cancelling the speed limit like they used to?

[EGPFlyer]

Originally Posted by LookingForAJob

Perhaps the reason is the law. Take a look at SERA.6001.

That says in class D you are restricted to 250 kts below 100 for IFR flights unless for safety reasons. The AIC circular over rides that for tactical reasons

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2004-06-24.pdf

[LEGAL TENDER]

That's an AIC from 2004?

The SERA harmonisation happened long after that.

[Rich3]

Originally Posted by EGPFlyer

That says in class D you are restricted to 250 kts below 100 for IFR flights unless for safety reasons. The AIC circular over rides that for tactical reasons

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2004-06-24.pdf

Why would an AIC nullify a legal document?

The AIC to which you refer is dated 2004 and contains references to the ANO, the Rules of the Air are no longer contained within the ANO.

SERA.6001 is the new reference document and correct to 16 May 2017.
Class D. IFR and VFR flights are permitted and all flights are provided with air traffic control service.....Continuous air-ground voice communications are required for all flights and a speed limitation of 250 kts IAS applies to all flights below 3 050 m (10 000 ft) AMSL, except where approved by the competent authority for aircraft types, which for technical or safety reasons, cannot maintain this speed.

To my knowledge the competent authority, the CAA, have not granted any exemptions and why would they?

[Emma Royds]

A quick look at MATS Part 1 shows that there is a provision to cater for 250 knots below FL100 in Class D, for aircraft that are not already exempt. This obviously seems to contradict regulation that has been quoted in earlier comments.

3A. Airspace Speed Limit

3A.1 Aircraft flying below FL100 are required to observe, with exceptions, a speed limit of 250 kt IAS. Such a limit is an essential component of the ‘see and avoid’ principle when separation is not established by ATC. This is in addition to speed limits, which may be
notified for specific procedures.

3A.2 The 250 kt speed limit does not apply to:

(1) flights in Class A and B airspace;

(2) IFR flights in Class C airspace;

(3) VFR flights in Class C airspace when approved in MATS Part 2 and authorised by an ATC unit;

(4) flights in Class D airspace when approved in MATS 2 and authorised by an ATC unit;

Note: Aircraft type and Aircraft Operator combinations exempt from the Class D airspace speed restriction on departure are published in the UK AIP associated to the aerodrome to which they apply.

(5) test flights in accordance with specified conditions;

(6) aircraft taking part in flying displays when authorised by the CAA;

(7) aircraft subject to a written permission granted by the CAA;

(8) State aircraft such as military aircraft.

Does anyone know if there is provision in MATS Pt 2 at Prestwick for allowing 250 knots below FL100 for Edinburgh outbounds, which would correlate with the AIP? If so then any idea why there is a difference between Glasgow and Edinburgh?

[chevvron]

For aircraft covered by 7 above, they should use a callsign prefixed either 'Fastjet' or 'Fastprop'. This means they have written permission from the CAA to exceed the 250kt speed limit when under a radar service.
Under 8 above, military aircraft can exceed 250kt at any time.

[Rich3]

Originally Posted by Emma Royds

A quick look at MATS Part 1 shows that there is a provision to cater for 250 knots below FL100 in Class D, for aircraft that are not already exempt. This obviously seems to contradict regulation that has been quoted in earlier comments.

3A. Airspace Speed Limit

3A.1 Aircraft flying below FL100 are required to observe, with exceptions, a speed limit of 250 kt IAS. Such a limit is an essential component of the ‘see and avoid’ principle when separation is not established by ATC. This is in addition to speed limits, which may be
notified for specific procedures.

3A.2 The 250 kt speed limit does not apply to:

(1) flights in Class A and B airspace;

(2) IFR flights in Class C airspace;

(3) VFR flights in Class C airspace when approved in MATS Part 2 and authorised by an ATC unit;

(4) flights in Class D airspace when approved in MATS 2 and authorised by an ATC unit;

Note: Aircraft type and Aircraft Operator combinations exempt from the Class D airspace speed restriction on departure are published in the UK AIP associated to the aerodrome to which they apply.

(5) test flights in accordance with specified conditions;

(6) aircraft taking part in flying displays when authorised by the CAA;

(7) aircraft subject to a written permission granted by the CAA;

(8) State aircraft such as military aircraft.

Does anyone know if there is provision in MATS Pt 2 at Prestwick for allowing 250 knots below FL100 for Edinburgh outbounds, which would correlate with the AIP? If so then any idea why there is a difference between Glasgow and Edinburgh?

The above is incorrect and out of date.
SI 2017/02 ‘Standardised European Rules of the Air (SERA) Part C Phase 1 Implementation’ superseded the above, which has since been incorporated into the seventh edition of CAP 493. See below and note the addition of the words 'for exempted' which complies with SERA.6001.

3A.2 The 250 kt speed limit does not apply to:

(1) flights in Class A and B airspace;

(2) IFR flights in Class C airspace;

(3) for exempted VFR flights in Class C airspace when authorised by an ATC unit in accordance with MATS Part 2;

(4) for exempted flights in Class D airspace when authorised by an ATC unit in accordance with MATS Part 2;

(5) test flights in accordance with specified conditions;

(6) aircraft taking part in flying displays when authorised by the CAA;

(7) aircraft subject to a written permission granted by the CAA;

(8) State aircraft such as military aircraft.

[Fursty Ferret]

We've noticed an increased noise nuisance from Heathrow departures in the Woking area recently; they seem to be climbing slower than they used to especially in the evenings so although they appear to be using reduced power, to the human ear the noise level is the same so we're exposed to the noise for longer than we used to be.

Would this be due to ATC not cancelling the speed limit like they used to?

No. People are finally becoming wary of TCAS RAs and respecting the guidance to reduce the rate of climb/descent to 1500ft/m within 2000ft of level off. Unfortunately some people are very keen and will drop the rate to 1000ft/m going through 2500ft altitude, hence more noise.

We've been forbidden for asking for high speed for years, IMHO it's up to ATC to offer it if they want us out of their sector.