Who's working the traffic?
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Fred
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We work both radar mode A+C and procedurel, with all surrounding unit sectors with no radar coverage.
Usually the "radarservice terminated" should make pilots squawk standard IFR/VFR, more often than not it doesn't.
We rarely have problems with two aircrafts on the same squawk, one within and one outside our airspace, and when we do, we simply change the squawk of "our" flight....
But we're so far from everything/nearest radar unit we can use all codes, and the system we have is not interconnected with others sharing codes and so..
Usually the "radarservice terminated" should make pilots squawk standard IFR/VFR, more often than not it doesn't.
We rarely have problems with two aircrafts on the same squawk, one within and one outside our airspace, and when we do, we simply change the squawk of "our" flight....
But we're so far from everything/nearest radar unit we can use all codes, and the system we have is not interconnected with others sharing codes and so..
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Our conspicuity Squawks are allocated so that other RADAR units including the local LARs can see who is working a particular aircraft. We have one for IFR and one for VFR. I believe its common practice for the few remaining procedural units.
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Conspicuity squawks for non-radar units are far more useful than ORCAM/CCAMS in an unknown traffic environment.
The attitude of ATCO Fred and others does worry me. It may be possible to guess which unit is providing the aircraft with a service if there is only 1 or 2 units using these codes in class G. But that is not the same as knowing and if this practice spreads.....
Is it really such a "no brainer" to work traffic on what is no better than a 7000 squawk?
The attitude of ATCO Fred and others does worry me. It may be possible to guess which unit is providing the aircraft with a service if there is only 1 or 2 units using these codes in class G. But that is not the same as knowing and if this practice spreads.....
Is it really such a "no brainer" to work traffic on what is no better than a 7000 squawk?
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I suggest you read my post properly. With mode S we see callsign and registrations and part of the skill of a Class G radar controller is knowing the dynamic of the local airspace and it's users. That is a skill that takes time and thus why most units have radar pay scales that reward that greater experience. I don't remember stating guess work on a mode A of 7000 just informed deduction based on unit codes and callsign. Now that is a no brainer and the ethos I train and examine controllers on. Happy to host a visit and show you how this is done in practice - just pm me. Regds Fred
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Fred, you have just proved one of the points that I have been trying to make, that ATCOs are now being trained to use non-unit codes in an unknown traffic environment. They will then accept that this is the norm and my fear is that this practice will spread further.
I am fully aware of what information is provided by mode S, but one thing it does not provide is which unit is providing the aircraft with a service. A code allocated to a specific unit does this and does away with the need for "informed deduction". You know exactly who to contact if necessary. You will also retain all of the mode S information. Is it really so difficult to say "squawk xxxx"?
When I was undergoing OJT any traffic leaving controlled airspace was given a unit code before exiting so that other units were made aware of its intentions.. You had to have a very good reason for not doing so.
As I have said before I can forsee the time when any aircraft on a flight plan will be left on an ORCAM/CCAMS code whether it is inside controlled airspace or not. If every unit adopts this practice situational awareness for all units will be reduced.
You will also see that I said that ORCAM/CCAMS codes are "no better" than a 7000 squawk. This is because a 7000 code tells you that there is an aircraft there and it's level (if selected by the pilot). If you are unable to co-ordinate you need to try to avoid by 5nm/3000ft.
To a unit that is not working the traffic on an ORCAM/CCAMS code you may get more information via mode S, but it still does not tell you which unit is providing the service. Again, if you are unable to co-ordinate you need to try to avoid by 5nm/3000ft.
There are still some radar units that do not have access to mode S.
I am fully aware of what information is provided by mode S, but one thing it does not provide is which unit is providing the aircraft with a service. A code allocated to a specific unit does this and does away with the need for "informed deduction". You know exactly who to contact if necessary. You will also retain all of the mode S information. Is it really so difficult to say "squawk xxxx"?
When I was undergoing OJT any traffic leaving controlled airspace was given a unit code before exiting so that other units were made aware of its intentions.. You had to have a very good reason for not doing so.
As I have said before I can forsee the time when any aircraft on a flight plan will be left on an ORCAM/CCAMS code whether it is inside controlled airspace or not. If every unit adopts this practice situational awareness for all units will be reduced.
You will also see that I said that ORCAM/CCAMS codes are "no better" than a 7000 squawk. This is because a 7000 code tells you that there is an aircraft there and it's level (if selected by the pilot). If you are unable to co-ordinate you need to try to avoid by 5nm/3000ft.
To a unit that is not working the traffic on an ORCAM/CCAMS code you may get more information via mode S, but it still does not tell you which unit is providing the service. Again, if you are unable to co-ordinate you need to try to avoid by 5nm/3000ft.
There are still some radar units that do not have access to mode S.
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Toadpool - what's the point of having the advantages of Mode S if you are not going to use the data to provide a better ATS or reduce controller workload.
If I see an ORCAN squawk north of Malby descending and I see from mode S its callsign is RRR2201 I know it's going to be working Brize. If I see an ORCAM Squawk north of Malby callsign N750GF (Gloucester resident) then I know Brize Lars are working it initially and then Gloucester if clear of brize traffic as it routes toward NERMO. If I see N843TE (Eclipse Jet Kemble maintain the UK Eclipse aircraft) on a ORGAM squawk north of Kemble climbing then I know that's climbing FL80 out of Kemble working Brize joining at Malby and if I see the selected level mode S indicate higher than FL80 then it's already talking to Sector 23 and been given a higher level to join CAS. Really. . . all of this is a no brainer and i'm struggling to see what your point is. All of this is deduced info and allows the controller to decide if co-ordination is needed or if it is better to just turn away.
This doesn't happen anymore. ORCAM squawks appear from all types of minor aerodromes with traffic flying VFR but looking to join CAS. Our arrivals remain on ORCAM squawks and our departures get airborne on this so the Squawk is picked up on the radars at Swanwick, processed and the flight-plan is auto DM'd
As above - this happens now and it massively aids situational awareness as I know not to try and route above something that will climbing higher and probably just under a BS outside CAS until it enters.
I'm afraid you are wrong here. A 7000 squawk is unvalidated and unverified and requires greater separation standards than an ORCAM squawk which is validated and verified. CAVEAT - not for one climbing out from a non radar equipped aerodrome.
But this is not about separation standards and co-ordination its about using all of the information available to make informed judgement on how the dynamic traffic situation is going to evolve. The you know when co-ordination is worth-while and when to do so would sap capacity and it is easier to just steer the traffic around.
As a said; happy to show this in use; it really is second nature when you can process all of the information at your fingertips.
Regards Fred
If I see an ORCAN squawk north of Malby descending and I see from mode S its callsign is RRR2201 I know it's going to be working Brize. If I see an ORCAM Squawk north of Malby callsign N750GF (Gloucester resident) then I know Brize Lars are working it initially and then Gloucester if clear of brize traffic as it routes toward NERMO. If I see N843TE (Eclipse Jet Kemble maintain the UK Eclipse aircraft) on a ORGAM squawk north of Kemble climbing then I know that's climbing FL80 out of Kemble working Brize joining at Malby and if I see the selected level mode S indicate higher than FL80 then it's already talking to Sector 23 and been given a higher level to join CAS. Really. . . all of this is a no brainer and i'm struggling to see what your point is. All of this is deduced info and allows the controller to decide if co-ordination is needed or if it is better to just turn away.
When I was undergoing OJT any traffic leaving controlled airspace was given a unit code before exiting so that other units were made aware of its intentions.. You had to have a very good reason for not doing so.
As I have said before I can forsee the time when any aircraft on a flight plan will be left on an ORCAM/CCAMS code whether it is inside controlled airspace or not. If every unit adopts this practice situational awareness for all units will be reduced.
You will also see that I said that ORCAM/CCAMS codes are "no better" than a 7000 squawk. This is because a 7000 code tells you that there is an aircraft there and it's level (if selected by the pilot). If you are unable to co-ordinate you need to try to avoid by 5nm/3000ft.
To a unit that is not working the traffic on an ORCAM/CCAMS code you may get more information via mode S, but it still does not tell you which unit is providing the service. Again, if you are unable to co-ordinate you need to try to avoid by 5nm/3000ft.
There are still some radar units that do not have access to mode S.
To a unit that is not working the traffic on an ORCAM/CCAMS code you may get more information via mode S, but it still does not tell you which unit is providing the service. Again, if you are unable to co-ordinate you need to try to avoid by 5nm/3000ft.
There are still some radar units that do not have access to mode S.
But this is not about separation standards and co-ordination its about using all of the information available to make informed judgement on how the dynamic traffic situation is going to evolve. The you know when co-ordination is worth-while and when to do so would sap capacity and it is easier to just steer the traffic around.
As a said; happy to show this in use; it really is second nature when you can process all of the information at your fingertips.
Regards Fred
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Yes Fred, but as already stated by the OP he does not have Mode S data and is well aware of how it can be deduced what an aircraft may be doing and who it might be working but that's not the point. I think you'll find dynamics of the airspace the OP works are more complex with around 7 radar units working in the same area and many military jets of various types.
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I am not suggesting that mode S data should not be used to improve situational awareness at all. In fact I am saying that the information missing from mode S, e.g. the unit providing the service, should and could be added by simply using a unit specific code. You will still retain the mode S data and all other units will be aware of who is providing the aircraft with a service. You may have the luxury of mode S, but is this true of all of your neighbouring units? I know that we do not have mode S, nor do several other adjacent units. All we see is the squawk, level and, if required, speed of the aircraft.
As for the examples in your second para, I'm sorry but you do not "know" which unit is providing the service. You may be able to make a fairly accurate assumption based upon previous knowledge and experience, but this is not the same as knowing.
In this case how do you know if/when the squawk has been validated and verified?
Really? As stated above, can it be guaranteed that the ORCAM code has been validated and verified? With a discrete unit code this is a requirement.
Also;
MATS Pt1 Para 10A.5
Aircraft Under Deconfliction Service
. If the intentions of the Mode C transponding aircraft are not known, the vertical deconfliction minima must be increased to 3000 ft, and unless the SSR Mode 3A indicates that the Mode C data has been verified, the surveillance returns, however presented, should not merge.
Are these not the same minima that are applied to aircraft on a 7000 squawk? Which is why I say that in class G airspace an ORCAM code is no better than a 7000 squawk.
Although we do not have mode S at work, I can see it can be a very useful tool, with all the extra information available. But I also feel that being able to identify, without any ambiguity, which unit is providing a service quickly and easily is important. ORCAM/CCAMS codes do not provide this, mode S or not.
As for the examples in your second para, I'm sorry but you do not "know" which unit is providing the service. You may be able to make a fairly accurate assumption based upon previous knowledge and experience, but this is not the same as knowing.
ORCAM squawks appear from all types of minor aerodromes with traffic flying VFR but looking to join CAS
I'm afraid you are wrong here. A 7000 squawk is unvalidated and unverified and requires greater separation standards than an ORCAM squawk which is validated and verified.
Also;
MATS Pt1 Para 10A.5
Aircraft Under Deconfliction Service
. If the intentions of the Mode C transponding aircraft are not known, the vertical deconfliction minima must be increased to 3000 ft, and unless the SSR Mode 3A indicates that the Mode C data has been verified, the surveillance returns, however presented, should not merge.
Are these not the same minima that are applied to aircraft on a 7000 squawk? Which is why I say that in class G airspace an ORCAM code is no better than a 7000 squawk.
Although we do not have mode S at work, I can see it can be a very useful tool, with all the extra information available. But I also feel that being able to identify, without any ambiguity, which unit is providing a service quickly and easily is important. ORCAM/CCAMS codes do not provide this, mode S or not.
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Already stated in my previous post which you conveniently missed when quoting !
Thus the caveat. I think we are in almost in agreement here of sorts. . . . just I'm not that bothered if it's ORCAM or not . . . that's my problem not yours.
Cheers Callum 91 but when you degenerate into my airspace is bigger / busier than yours then that's not a particularly helpfully to the debate but I appreciate your condescending input. Ohh BTW - we have 9 adjacent radar units I hand traffic to and an AIAA . . .. .just saying :-)
I'm afraid you are wrong here. A 7000 squawk is unvalidated and unverified and requires greater separation standards than an ORCAM squawk which is validated and verified. CAVEAT - not for one climbing out from a non radar equipped aerodrome.
you'll find dynamics of the airspace the OP works are more complex with around 7 radar units working in the same area and many military jets of various types.
Last edited by ATCO Fred; 10th Nov 2016 at 13:27.
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Are these not the same minima that are applied to aircraft on a 7000 squawk? Which is why I say that in class G airspace an ORCAM code is no better than a 7000 squawk.
Good debate thanks all Fred.
Just to add something to this Flat Earther's, 'Who's working the traffic' debate...
I was on a flight over N.Wales working and Squawking Valley Radar. I turned onto 120deg and dropped behind the Snowdonian range, and continued for another 40nm, still tuned into Valley. I was then within range of Shawbury AIAA, but could get no reply from them as well, because they had packed in for the day.
So I was in an area where I could have worked up to 4 different agencies, and squawking one that was 60nm away, and most likely gone home as well.
Fortunately Shawbury area is not really an AIAA at that time of day.
I was on a flight over N.Wales working and Squawking Valley Radar. I turned onto 120deg and dropped behind the Snowdonian range, and continued for another 40nm, still tuned into Valley. I was then within range of Shawbury AIAA, but could get no reply from them as well, because they had packed in for the day.
So I was in an area where I could have worked up to 4 different agencies, and squawking one that was 60nm away, and most likely gone home as well.
Fortunately Shawbury area is not really an AIAA at that time of day.
