Vectoring for Visual Approach
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Vectoring for Visual Approach
Can I have some ATC insights about visual approach possibility when approaching for a runway which is not equipped nor has any procedure published? Does vectoring for visual approach represent an legal option for ATC, based on Doc 4444 requirements (or other ICAO docs)?
To be more specific the other direction has an ILS but circling for landing is not quite an economical option for the A320!
Appreciate all European based ATC inputs!
Thank you
To be more specific the other direction has an ILS but circling for landing is not quite an economical option for the A320!
Appreciate all European based ATC inputs!
Thank you
Mil ATC in the UK will vector for a "radar to visual" approach (possibly some civil ATC, too). This involves vectors onto the extended centreline of the runway required and descent to minimum safe vectoring height until the pilot is in a position to take over visually.
I retired 7 years ago, so I can't give you a definitive answer for how things are today. Things may have changed. But, throughout my ATC career (Edinburgh, Hurn, Aberdeen, Jersey) we vectored a/c to visual approaches. This could be to final, base leg, or downwind. There was no restriction to doing this except that the visibility & cloud base had to enable the a/c to be able to proceed visually once the radar vectoring had terminated, & there had to be a reasonable assurance that the crew could complete the approach visually to landing. Also, when vectoring a/c to visuals, ATC had to ensure standard IFR separation between a/c. Visual approaches could be carried out to any runway regardless of whether they had ILS or NDB approach procedures associated with them. I don't think much will have changed from the ATC perspective between then & now. However, there have been some high profile accidents which have occurred to a/c carrying out visual approaches due to loss of pilot orientation. This may have had an impact on airline company procedures which preclude a/c of those companies making visual approaches in certain circumstances..
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Just to add to this in UK and I would imagine most countries you can only "clear" an aircraft for a visual approach if you are the designated approach unit for that airport. Other airports you can vector within MSA and once crew happy to continue visual then cancel radar service and aircraft QSY. Interestingly at the unit I am now we are the approach unit for four airports and at quiet times you can be clearing aircraft for approaches at three different airports on same frequency!
Descent should be given in accordance with the minimum level(s) shown on the SMAC* plate, bearing in mind there may or may not be a final approach sector where terrain clearance reduces to 500ft rather than 1,000ft.
*SMAC = Surveillance Minimum Altitude Chart - usually included in the TAP package for the airfield (well it always used to be in both AERAD and Jeppesen).
*SMAC = Surveillance Minimum Altitude Chart - usually included in the TAP package for the airfield (well it always used to be in both AERAD and Jeppesen).
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Il Duce – when I left The Mob, the procedure had (only then recently) changed to:
“Radar to visual” – descend aircraft to minimum vectoring chart altitude (under the appropriate ATSOCAS radar service) and ‘point aeroplane at the aerodrome’ and put him to Tower when ‘visual below’ when pilot was able to continue under VFR and assumed responsibility for traffic avoidance; clearly only used when weather was fairly good (Blu, Wht at worse) and VMC could be readily achieved. (Fundamentally a ‘Cloud Break to achieve VMC below').
“Radar to Initial” – vector and descend aircraft down to SMAC chart level - as chevvron describes (500ft terrain clearance in Final Approach Sector) - to a position approaching ‘Initial’ (deadside of runway centreline, usually at 3NM out) under appropriate ATCOSAS until visual with circuit environment, when of course pilot will be VMC and be able to effect separation from other circuit traffic before radar separation was compromised (Yeah –right! 
). If not ‘visual’ approaching Initial, turn outbound to join the instrument pattern for the inevitable fuel priority PAR/ILS! If – after coordination with Tower - the circuit was clear, descent could be continued to the Cat E circling minima when within 4NM of the aerodrome. This mainly ‘fast jet’ procedure could be used in weather down to Grn limits. The problem here was one man’s circuit VMC was not necessarily another’s! 
However, it worked until the Captain or Duty Officer Flying pushed the limits too far. 
This was a long time ago now and I’m not saying this is current practice and things may well have changed……
). If not ‘visual’ approaching Initial, turn outbound to join the instrument pattern for the inevitable fuel priority PAR/ILS! If – after coordination with Tower - the circuit was clear, descent could be continued to the Cat E circling minima when within 4NM of the aerodrome. This mainly ‘fast jet’ procedure could be used in weather down to Grn limits. The problem here was one man’s circuit VMC was not necessarily another’s! However, it worked until the Captain or Duty Officer Flying pushed the limits too far. Join Date: Jan 2007
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In Germany we are allowed to vector for a visual approach at some airfields, however visual approaches for jet aircraft are often prohibited due to noise abatement regulations. The lowest you can go before taking over visually is of course the minimum vectoring altitude which will mostly be around 1500ft or more above field elevation.
Downwind.MaddlLand, your summary above is still, more or less, in use. My abbreviated version was intended to give liviup an idea of a "radar to visual straight in" approach as an alternative to an instrument recovery. I get the feeling he/she might not fancy the fast-jet-through-the-IP type nor the overhead join in an A320. Or, maybe..... liviup?
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Hi Il-Duce, I thought that was the case and wasn't trying to be 'clever' or anything. I was trying to add to your initial response for the benefit of other readers in case it was of interest and in case the OP's unit is a joint Civ/Mil one. 
Last edited by Downwind.Maddl-Land; 16th Mar 2016 at 11:26.
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Wadda Mistaka Tomaka
Il-Duce. Touché pussycat! (That's what comes of trying to type on a bouncy ole London Commuter train!) 
Touché pussycat! (That's what comes of trying to type on a bouncy ole London Commuter train!)
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Thank you all so far!
I need to be maybe a little more precise, for my sake of course.
So it comes: I am interested to find out if a vectoring for visual approach can be issued by the ATC for the runway which is not having any, and this is the most important, any instrument procedure published.
The visual approach is defined as in Doc 4444, and I quote: "Visual approach. An approach by an IFR flight when either part or all of an instrument approach procedure is not completed and the approach is executed in visual reference to terrain."
But as I said I don't have any instrument procedure at all. The only possible approach for that runway is by making a circling doing the ILS on the opposite.
So can I consider vectoring as being an instrument approach? And subsequently issue the vectoring for visual app or can't I?
Any input on this is greatly appreciated as I'm swimming the sea of incertitude.
I need to be maybe a little more precise, for my sake of course.
So it comes: I am interested to find out if a vectoring for visual approach can be issued by the ATC for the runway which is not having any, and this is the most important, any instrument procedure published.
The visual approach is defined as in Doc 4444, and I quote: "Visual approach. An approach by an IFR flight when either part or all of an instrument approach procedure is not completed and the approach is executed in visual reference to terrain."
But as I said I don't have any instrument procedure at all. The only possible approach for that runway is by making a circling doing the ILS on the opposite.
So can I consider vectoring as being an instrument approach? And subsequently issue the vectoring for visual app or can't I?
Any input on this is greatly appreciated as I'm swimming the sea of incertitude.
If you are a Pilot
Pick up a phone and ring the relevant ATC unit.
If you are an ATCO
I would be wondering about your training.
I need to be maybe a little more precise, for my sake of course.
So it comes: I am interested to find out if a vectoring for visual approach can be issued by the ATC for the runway which is not having any, and this is the most important, any instrument procedure published.
So it comes: I am interested to find out if a vectoring for visual approach can be issued by the ATC for the runway which is not having any, and this is the most important, any instrument procedure published.
If you are an ATCO
So can I consider vectoring as being an instrument approach? And subsequently issue the vectoring for visual app or can't I?
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Agree with the Confused One, call the ATC and hear if they have any restrictions against vectoring for a visual approach into a non-instrument runway.
For the most part, there's nothing keeping ATC from it, unless there's a local regulation.
What I've been grinding my brain about for a long time is, you cannot give a visual approach if the ceiling is below the initial approach level, unless the aircraft is established in the level...... And so on.... You all know the drill.
And you cannot vector for a visual approach if the ceiling is below the vectoring altitude.....
How the hell do you then handle it if.... And bear with me here.... The initial approach altitude is 3100ft agl,and the minimum vectoring is 3200ft agl... And the entire approach sector is sky clear, but the clouds over the field give you the ceiling of 3000ft agl??
Everyone and his mother will try to call for a visual approach, but I can't find the writing allowing it (until they're on the final anyway)
For the most part, there's nothing keeping ATC from it, unless there's a local regulation.
What I've been grinding my brain about for a long time is, you cannot give a visual approach if the ceiling is below the initial approach level, unless the aircraft is established in the level...... And so on.... You all know the drill.
And you cannot vector for a visual approach if the ceiling is below the vectoring altitude.....
How the hell do you then handle it if.... And bear with me here.... The initial approach altitude is 3100ft agl,and the minimum vectoring is 3200ft agl... And the entire approach sector is sky clear, but the clouds over the field give you the ceiling of 3000ft agl??
Everyone and his mother will try to call for a visual approach, but I can't find the writing allowing it (until they're on the final anyway)
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I am an ATCO and I am trained enough. I was trying to see how other see this situation because there is currently quite an altercation at my unit and older ATCOs are saying that I have no idea about ATC in general. As I said I am looking for answers or ideas and I don.t want to be judged. The main idea is again does anybody use vectoring for visual approach for non instrument RWY or not? If yes are there any special circumstances like local procedures vetted by national regulator or something! Thank you again for your time
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There are no restrictions against vectoring from us ATCO.
As you said there's nothing keeping ATC from doing this, but my very argumentative colleagues put the definition of visual approach on the table so that's why I had to ask.
As you said there's nothing keeping ATC from doing this, but my very argumentative colleagues put the definition of visual approach on the table so that's why I had to ask.
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Ok, so lets see if we can help you then with regards to your use of certain words and your airfield.
First can you give us the designator of your airfield and hopefully an online AIP where we can view your charts.
You talk about a procedure about doing the ILS to the other runway and then circling to land on the runway in use. Is this a published procedure? How do IFR aircraft land on this particular runway at the moment?
There are ways around what you are trying to achieve without using that specific phraseology, but it would be useful to see all info.
If you are talking about Cluj airport then I can see your issues...
http://airportcluj.ro/fisiere/userfi..._2_LRCL_en.pdf
http://aisro.ro/aip/2015-12-10/DOCS/...CL_7-52_en.pdf
Happy to help via PM if you prefer
First can you give us the designator of your airfield and hopefully an online AIP where we can view your charts.
You talk about a procedure about doing the ILS to the other runway and then circling to land on the runway in use. Is this a published procedure? How do IFR aircraft land on this particular runway at the moment?
There are ways around what you are trying to achieve without using that specific phraseology, but it would be useful to see all info.
If you are talking about Cluj airport then I can see your issues...
http://airportcluj.ro/fisiere/userfi..._2_LRCL_en.pdf
http://aisro.ro/aip/2015-12-10/DOCS/...CL_7-52_en.pdf
Happy to help via PM if you prefer
t doing the ILS to the other runway and then circling to land on the runway in use. Is this a published procedure?
Never seen it actually published in the AIP.
Small airports without any organic Approach Radar Service.
Bit strange that an airport with approach radar service and an ILS on the main runway would not have instrument approached (even NDB) for the other.
Smaller cross runway?
What is the MSA in the vicinity?
Is the high ground clearly indicated on your screen?
colleagues
put the definition of visual approach
What does your regulator say?
This used to be the case at Aberdeen MANY years ago. Procedural ILS to 17 followed by visual manouevring to 35 (no ILS available). In a very busy IFR environment, this was FAR from ideal !