"Expect late landing clearance"
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"Expect late landing clearance"
Chaps/chapesses
Just curious about the above phrase and how it's used at various units...
IF you use it is it defined in your MATS 2? What is your cut-off point? E.g. Landing clearance will be given when inbound is, say, inside 1nm final
(If you're bold enough to add airfield that'd be great, if not no sweat)
Just curious about the above phrase and how it's used at various units...
IF you use it is it defined in your MATS 2? What is your cut-off point? E.g. Landing clearance will be given when inbound is, say, inside 1nm final
(If you're bold enough to add airfield that'd be great, if not no sweat)
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Some controllers use it as "padding" when they are running it tight but it is a bit of a "feel good" phrase. It would only be used in visual conditions in which aircrews can see if the RWY is still occupied. If you feel you must say something, try "continue approach, 737 (or whatever) departing/vacating."
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Anecdotally I believe at least one airport / major airline considers there's a risk of expectation bias when this phrase is used - leading the crew into expecting a landing clearance. I stand to be corrected, but didn't the thinking for crews used to be: expect a go-around until offered the runway by way of a landing clearance?
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I tend to agree with most of the comments so far...I much prefer saying something like "continue approach, [reason]" e.g. [departure ahead/routine runway inspection in progress].
I can't agree with you HD, in my mind less R/T is better...yes, at times you need to control the R/T but superfluous waffle makes no sense to me.
Getting back to original question though...does your MATS 2 require you to say it, if so when?
I can't agree with you HD, in my mind less R/T is better...yes, at times you need to control the R/T but superfluous waffle makes no sense to me.
Getting back to original question though...does your MATS 2 require you to say it, if so when?
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It's a pretty meaningless phrase to be honest, and we don't use it.
'Continue approach, one to vacate' or similar is much more descriptive and also does not lead the flight crew into confirmation bias.
'Continue approach, one to vacate' or similar is much more descriptive and also does not lead the flight crew into confirmation bias.
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As a Pilot at a large 'southern' airport I quite like it, as mentioned earlier on, it tells me that the controller has a plan and I can relax a bit, I can fly down a lot lower without worrying so much about going around as I know...there is a plan....hopefully! 
As a retired controller now operating as a FISO, I wish we could use something similar.
At small or medium sized ATC airports, you could always use 'land after' if all the conditions are fulfilled; I used to use both of these at Farnborough although some of my colleagues would rather issue a 'go-around'' and not use either, don't know why, lack of confidence in themselves and the pilots maybe?.
At small or medium sized ATC airports, you could always use 'land after' if all the conditions are fulfilled; I used to use both of these at Farnborough although some of my colleagues would rather issue a 'go-around'' and not use either, don't know why, lack of confidence in themselves and the pilots maybe?.
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"Expect late landing clearance", surely means that traffic is light.
"Expect very late landing clearance", means 'it's going a bit', however the ANSP's movement-rate contract with the aerodrome authority is probably being fulfilled.
"Expect very late landing clearance", means 'it's going a bit', however the ANSP's movement-rate contract with the aerodrome authority is probably being fulfilled.
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If you really want to improve the situational awareness why don't you tell the crew what's going on (departure in progress, RWY inspection, bulls running on the strip, naked girls on the aiming point ... ) , otherwise just say nothing but "continue the approach" .
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The trouble with 'expect late landing clearance' is that it was often used when something like 'I cannot give you landing clearance at this time' would be more appropriate, when the ATCO was thinking 'Ho hum, this is going to be very tight, not sure this will work but I'm not going to throw it away yet'. But what the flight crew heard, and is now thinking, is that 'this ATCO is really switched on and has just told me I'm going to get a landing clearance'.
They are two different mental models.
That's not good.
They are two different mental models.
That's not good.
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Then there are crews for whom English is not their first language and hearing a phrase which includes something to do with landing may assume a landing clearance. It has happened to me. "Continue approach" is in Australian phraseology and I assume most others.
That's why "takeoff" is only ever used with a takeoff clearance.
That's why "takeoff" is only ever used with a takeoff clearance.
As a controller, I only use it when I'm pretty certain a landing clearance will be forthcoming (saving an abort or other somewhat unusual event).
May add a bit of situational awareness or even reassurance for the flight crew/s, and (maybe more important) may prevent someone overshooting needlessly.
May add a bit of situational awareness or even reassurance for the flight crew/s, and (maybe more important) may prevent someone overshooting needlessly.
Heathrow Director makes a very valid point about manipulating the frequency to the Controller's needs. In my experience, this is a very valuable strategy - for the issues that HD mentions. It needs to be used cautiously , though.
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i am sorry for the OOT question, if a traffic requesting descent .. does the Atco expect him to vacate immediatly or he can wait until the computer's ToD? thanks.
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If you request descent, it means you want it now. Here, the controller would expect you to commence descent as soon as possible but not more than one minute. The same if the controller initiates the descent. If the controller has no restrictions and gets in first, the instruction may be preceded by "when ready descend to..." In that case, you can commence descent whenever it suits you or the computer. You could prefix your request with " request descent at (time/distance/place) or if planning ahead the controller may request your descent point.
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This call is for the benefit of the pilot and I think it does the job. It primes us not to ask for a clearance, it tells us that something else is going on, that we haven't been forgotten and most important of all, it now primes us for a go-around. That this phrase doesn't fit in the book doesn't worry me at all.
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As a pilot "expect a late landing clearance" triggers several things in me:
- situational awareness. It tells me that for some reason - known or unknown - i will not get my landing clearance right away. Most of the time it is a developing situation. Traffic in front missed the first exit and trundles along on the runway.
- I will PREPARE FOR A GO-AROUND
This phrase implies a limiting factor for a landing clearance which is still there (see above.) So better be up and ready to take action.
- It also tells me that if it works out there is still a reasonable chance for a landing. My thumb is next to the TOGA button nevertheless.
- It also tells me at some airports and in some situations that I have not been forgotten.
IMHO something of a primer to heighten alertness without alarming. For me a very welcome thing as I now know that ATC has a plan and I have my finger ready at the TOGA button.
- situational awareness. It tells me that for some reason - known or unknown - i will not get my landing clearance right away. Most of the time it is a developing situation. Traffic in front missed the first exit and trundles along on the runway.
- I will PREPARE FOR A GO-AROUND
This phrase implies a limiting factor for a landing clearance which is still there (see above.) So better be up and ready to take action.
- It also tells me that if it works out there is still a reasonable chance for a landing. My thumb is next to the TOGA button nevertheless.
- It also tells me at some airports and in some situations that I have not been forgotten.
IMHO something of a primer to heighten alertness without alarming. For me a very welcome thing as I now know that ATC has a plan and I have my finger ready at the TOGA button.