Why at 1500FT (or close to it)

[testpanel]

I am getting annoyed to switch, after T/O at around 1500ft, to a departure frequency just AT THE SAME TIME we want to select climb thrust and so on.

Then when i am a little delayed checking in or so ATC is also annoyed!
I know the aviate, navigate and communicate, and i am more than happy to assist ATC wherever i can BUT..........

And i am only talking about my experiences in Europe and the USA...
Anyone has the same thoughts?

[T250]

Might help if you could be a bit more specific as to where this has happened.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I was a Heathrow controller for most of my life and we tried a variety of procedures regarding frequency change. The best was for ATC to instruct the crews to change frequency as soon as they were airborne. I used to do it when there was light under the wheels.

Crews often got mixed up. The best was a EU airline, usually one of the most reliable, who was told "After departure, contact xxx". He changed straight away and called London Control. The controller answered with the usual "squawk ident, climb to altitude 6000 ft". The Controller in the tower was amazed to see the aircraft line up and take-off without a word from him!!!

You can please some of the pilots some of the time....

[good egg]

HD I agree that is best for long/departure-only runways.

I work at a mixed mode (short!) runway. Whenever possible I "chuck" as early as possible (at my unit procedure is to check SSR code first - no SMR), however, we also need to protect against piggy-back go-around scenario so it's not possible during peak hours (obviously if the weather is poor - low cloud/low vis - we increase arrival spacing to ensure we have separation if this occurs). In good conditions, where we can visually separate if there is a missed approach, we have tighter arrival spacing. In this case we hold on to departures for longer (until the SID track takes them away from the missed approach track) - generally until the first turn. Once that occurs, or we have seen a successful landing, we "chuck" to radar.
The first turn on our SIDs is either 1 or 1.5 DME and most departures are around 1000ft or above at this stage (due to steep climb gradient).
Likewise we have tried polling pilots to get a best-time-to-transfer and trialling different procedures but with inconclusive results.

[testpanel]

[QUOTE]Might help if you could be a bit more specific as to where this has happened./QUOTE]

Well, that should not make a difference.

I donīt want to blame any airport, any country, any ATCO, nor any culture.

I just want to do my job (like you guys and girls).

But i/we have our SOPīs our company is expecting us to follow.

But taking off from CVG or JFK may be a high work load, on a heavy.

(i wonīt mentione CDG...)

[Fly Through]

Well, assuming we can't tell you to switch once airborne, when would you prefer the instruction?

[good egg]

Sadly, but understandably, not all SOPs are the same (aircraft types/airline operators/etc.etc.).
Equally local ATC procedures are similarly diverse (see examples above) depending on the airport operation.

The problem we found was that the differences in SOPs meant there was no consensus amongst operators and, even if there had been, local ATC procedures (with their own hazard assessments) prohibit some of the "ideal" timing options.

[testpanel]

[QUOTE]Well, assuming we can't tell you to switch once airborne, when would you prefer the instruction?/QUOTE]

All right, so you guys/girls think you control the skies.

Since i have my responsibility i WILL call YOU whenever convenient. (above 3000ft and time permitting, how is that for a deal?)

[nick14]

Company SOPs are not to call until flaps up which is quite late. I often find ATC asking for us on frequency. Never found any ATC to be annoyed however.

I find that many airports have specific requirements for specific reasons and I do try my best to adhere to them.

One particular bone of mine is being talked at very early in a go around, happened on a number of occasions at my home base and each time has interrupted something important.

[cossack]

Reasons why ATC can't auto-transfer or transfer with T/O clearance:
Mixed mode operations;
Closely spaced parallel arrivals;
Closely spaced parallel departures;
Precluded in local instructions.

Reasons for early frequency change:
To enable continuous climb/low SID altitude limit;
To allow a turn on course as soon as possible/after noise;

Things that pi$$ off ATC:
Aircraft leaving the frequency without being given a change;
As above and guessing the wrong frequency;

testpanel
As a Tower controller I will give you a frequency change when it suits me and you can call departure when it suits you. If you level off or go 10 miles in the wrong direction (vectored SIDs), so be it.

nick14
There are times when we have to talk to you early in a missed approach: traffic information and separation from other traffic. If I don't need to talk to you, I won't. Some controllers just love to talk though.

Flip this around for a second: call tower before you get to 2 miles final especially on a mixed mode runway.

[kcockayne]

I was an ATCO for 32 years, at an aerodrome, & I don't think I ever had a problem such as this. So, it can't be a very great problem , or, at the least, an insurmountable one.
ATCOS are not just "going through the motions " & unthinkingly addressing transmissions to pilots without thinking & appreciating the pilot's problems etc. In my experience ATC is always well aware of possible ramifications from its actions & instructions; & is always trying to lessen any negative impact of them on the flight deck.
Certainly, whenever I gave a frequency change I tried to do it at, what I thought, was the most advantageous time to do it (pilot's interest, my requirements, Radar Controller's requirements, Tower Controller's interests, safety requirements etc.). On occasion this required giving a frequency change instruction before the take off clearance , at other times a frequency change immediately after take off or, keeping the aircraft on frequency well after the usual transfer point (following co-ordination with the Radar Controller).
I guess that given two , sometimes conflicting sets of interests, there cannot always be a foolproof transfer point.
It saddens me to detect a possible confrontational aspect in certain posts about this. ATC & pilots are partners in the business of aviation safety & we should be striving to assist each other in achieving this objective.
I would ask any pilot to bear the Controller's interests & problems & professionalism in mind when he reacts to what he thinks is an in opportune timing of a frequency change; & not to automatically get hot under the collar about it. If a problem was caused by an ATCO's R/T, the best thing to do about it would be to discuss it afterwards either in person or by letter or email. Although I appreciate that there may well be a considerable time delay to this.
Anyway, co-operation & not confrontation is the way to proceed.

[GAPSTER]

Used to use..."frequency after departure will be XXX on $$$.$$,when instructed(emphasised)"...so crew would at least have it dialled and ready.Was a bit selective as to which operators I gave that to but it worked.Wheels up.."contact XXX"

[ZOOKER]

testpanel,
Like others here i spent years in the air controller's seat trying to transfer a/c to area control at the best possible time time for all concerned.
I also spent time as 'the catcher', receiving traffic transferred to me from the ladies and gents in the tower.
One of the SIDS usually required...."After passing 4000 feet, turn right heading xxx degrees climb to FLxxx, there's no ATC speed restriction".
It was hard trying to stop u/t ATCOs giving pilots all of this stuff 'in one go'.
It's a fairly high-workload time for all of us, and I suspect there is no easy answer to it.

[nick14]

I get that there may be reasons to be talked at early in a missed approach however why do it at a critical time IE just as we're setting thrust, retracting gear and selecting autopilot modes? The other main issue is that at almost every airport I have flown a missed approach the controllers first call is to give go around instructions that differ from the published. Why have the procedure there in the first place? Do you expect us to go around every time as we do?

My home base is particularly bad as they talk to you as soon As they see you climbing away and give you go around instructions. What is frustrating is that we would have done exactly what they wanted had they not spoken to us as the instructions happened to match the initial part of the missed approach. Very frustrating and has been a contributing factor in many go around accidents.

[Pontius]

It's really not a problem and I think testpanel is making a mountain out of a molehill.

1500' is normally when climb thrust or VNAV or some other power-changing mode is engaged but it really is extremely easy:

1. Change to the departure frequency as dictated by the tower
2. At 1500' set climb thrust or whatever (if required)
3. Talk to Departures

I have NEVER had ATC 'annoyed' at me and that includes Europe and the USA.

For some reason, some people think it is absolutely essential to 'check in' immediately after a frequency change (normally over-talking others that are already on frequency) rather than waiting until a more suitable time for either the aircraft operation or a break in the chatter. Just see to the power change and then chat with ATC; it's very simple

[Pera]

Very frustrating and has been a contributing factor in many go around accidents

You are going to need to back that claim up.

[jmmoric]

Depending on the situation, I'd usually go with about 3000ft for normal climbers.

There are, as others stated above, a lot of factors in play. But we never do things to annoy the pilots, and if pilots want to talk about odd practices, just give a call 😉

And for the go around, just a roger untill they've gotten some altitude as well (but I've got to talk to them at some point, since the missed approach where I currently work ends up opposite the inbound traffic)

[Fly Through]

Test panel, at which point I'll wait until you have levelled off and couldn't possibly be doing anything else.

See we can both be d1cks but I'd rather be more professional and have a mutual understanding of each other's problems.

[RAC/OPS]

Testpanel, are you annoyed at the transmission from TWR or the fact that you think you have to change as soon as TWR tells you?

From my point of view as a TWR controller, I want to get rid of you (in the nicest possible way) as soon as possible, I don't care when you actually make the switch - I have seen you on the correct squawk, and have taken any separation issues into account when I instruct you to call DEP's. You will be limited in your climb to the SID stop level, and I know which way you are going. DEP's can see you and also know what you're doing.

If you wish to delay your call to the next frequency, that is up to you, or if you like I will get you to remind me to transfer you when it is convenient for you. As someone else has said, different SOP's for different airlines. One airline used to prefer the change at around 2000', others earlier, less than 1000', so we can't have a generic instruction to transfer acft at a specific level etc.

[West Coast]

It saddens me to detect a possible confrontational aspect in certain posts about this. ATC & pilots are partners in the business of aviation safety & we should be striving to assist each other in achieving this objective.

Laudable but not always achievable given the priorities aren't always the same.