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Scottish Independence - ATC proposals

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Scottish Independence - ATC proposals

Old 31st Aug 2014, 14:26
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Scottish Independence - ATC proposals

I noticed this in the in the 'Scotland's future' document:

http://82.113.138.107/00439021.pdf

>>128. How will air traffic services be managed in an independent Scotland?

Airspace will be managed in the same way as it is currently managed with the emphasis on allowing the free and safe movement of aircraft.

The Westminster Government has a 49 per cent shareholding in National Air Traffic Services (NATS) and one of its two operational centres is based at Prestwick.

On independence, it is the intention of the current Scottish Government that NATS will continue its services for Scotland.

The Scottish Government will negotiate an appropriate share for Scotland of Westminster’s stake in NATS.<<

How would this work in terms of legislation? Surely ATC could not exist in Scotland without primary legislation. Presumably the newly formed Scotland would have to write it's own AIr Navigation legislation to enable an ATC service. How long might that take?
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 16:10
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We may well be talking about a "can of worms" here, spartacan.
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 16:53
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For those that can remember

"Our air is not for sale"
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 17:02
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Ah yes,
Andrew Smith, Labour Party Conference I think…..Wasn't that the party who……...'Dr'. John Reid was involved if I remember correctly.
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 17:18
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Aren't there some T&C aspects to think about? After a "yes" vote and successful independence negotiations, There would be quite a few NATS employees finding themselves in a foreign country....who might well expect either to be repatriated, or receive a sizeable bung to stay put.
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 17:50
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I thought Scottish Centre was due to move to Swanwick in 2020 anyway
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Old 31st Aug 2014, 23:07
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Some Scots just want to take the goods and dump the trash.

Behind the SNP independence party hides some bigoted figures.

Don't let them run away with it or the "United" in the Kingdom will forever cease to exist.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 07:38
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There would be ownership and regulatory issues but I don't see that the ops side would necessarily have to be affected. They could simply agree to continue with existing arrangements and describe the cross border provision of ATC by Scottish in the north of England an rUK/Scotland Functional Airspace Block.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 10:43
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The future of aviation in a free Scotland would be brilliant. The reduction in Navigation Charges would stimulate overflying traffic that wishes to avoid former UK fees, and as Scotland would take about half of the current UK "sky", the overflight income would be significant; especially without the need to financially support the [well lets just call them "other things"].
Scotland would have the potential to become an aviation growth area by expanding hub-and-spoke operations throughout the remaining UK and Europe. Just imagine that [like the Irish] the draconian anti-aviation taxes on air travel are reduced to such a level that the lowland three big airports become massive transit hubs.....jobs/jobs/jobs!!! Forget Heathrow and Gatwick in a free Scotland future.....they're already pricing themselves out of the picture, not helped by shortage of slots and horrific government taxes.
Local communities would be huge beneficiaries; a free Scotland might consider the relaxation of regulations concerning single engine transport. Cheaper overheads would stimulate air access to a greater number of small community airfields, with potential for economic stimulation.
What about a Scottish registration in line with the Channel Islands/Isle of Man.....very successful I believe.
On a personal note I can't believe that freedom can come as easily as a simple vote in a land where the the ground is soaked with the blood of so many that that gave their lives for the same end.
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 12:18
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How is the treaty worded that delegates responsibility of the atlantic airspace? Is it delegated to Prestwick Center, to NATS or to the UK?

If Scotland breaks out of the UK and the treaty delegates the atlantic to the UK; then surely oceanic control would have to move out of Scotland?
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Old 1st Sep 2014, 18:34
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Scottish Area is moving to Perth Aerodrome and DHH is going to be the perm duty pilot.

And Oceanic is moving to Machrihanish. And the full runway is getting opened again so the heavys can do a touch and go to dodge the carbon tax.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 07:00
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having witnessed separation process and having been in aviation since day one (of separation processes) I would say that some people underestimate situation.
Although ,many people around me will say Scotland and England should separate like Balkans '90 ,they deserved it , I don't think it will happen. Too much money involved, to be wasted in civil war.

In that case transition will be smooth, but civil aviation jobs are too good, too important, and the most important -there are great possibilities for bribery ,corruption and big money- all that political elite wants. Story behind independence ,separation and similar is just cover for such ambition.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 07:26
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On a personal note I can't believe that freedom can come as easily as a simple vote in a land where the the ground is soaked with the blood of so many that that gave their lives for the same end.
Wasn't that a long time ago?

Perhaps we should go through the phone book and identify all the Normans who seized land from the Saxons and sent them back to France.

We could then reset everything to the year 1065.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 09:16
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And the idea that overflight will be cheaper is a bit farcical.

They are going to need as much revenue as possible and letting someone through your air above you is pure profit.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 11:44
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Scotland would likely need to:

Join Eurocontrol, join ICAO, and develop a relationship with the Single European Sky, whether in the EU or out. Scotland would also need to establish a CAA and hence a safety regulator with all that that means and to appoint an ANSP for en-route services, which is likely NATS or more likely SATS a new Scottish ATS Employer.

Then all the UK agreements for ATC would need to be re-visited.

Or... Contract with the UK and pay for all of the above as an outsourced service.

Not a trivial thing. Years of work for consultants for sure!


Then what about aircraft registry?

Interesting times.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 12:47
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they could just copy the UK law
Scottish law is fundamentally different from English law. It has something to do with English law being case-based whereas Scottish is statute based (but my memory on this point is extremely sketchy).
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 18:25
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only certain bits.

The ANO is the same in Scotland as it is in England.

The main difference comes form the fact that in Scotland the guilty bastard doesn't have to pay costs of the case and the CAA cannot bring its own prosecutions they have to go through the proc fiscal.

So in England the CAA can bring a case, fail to ensure the conviction on the main items but secure a guilt on a paper work technicality which may only lead to a minor fine. But in England they can then slap the full cost of the case onto the defendant which may be several thousands pounds of costs ontop of fines.

In Scotland you will get the fine for the paper technicality and nothing further to pay.

Its the other way round Scotland is case based. But there is also statue stuff like smoking in public areas as well. But items such as what is an enclosed area will be defined by case law.

The classic example is the private clamping of cars, one case went through in Scotland and the defendant said it was extortion, the Judge or sheriff agreed and that was it, it was illegal for private firms to clamp cars.
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Old 2nd Sep 2014, 21:33
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Can't see an iScottish Govt. in a hurry to reinvent the wheel.

ATC already provided by what is essentially a private company at no cost to the tax payer.

Would NATS want to walk away from the revenue generated within airspace covering Scotland and the NE Atlantic?

Would an iScottish Govt. want to go through all the hassle of establishing a state-owned ATS provider?

Answers on a postcard...

(iScotland might well be the only thing that secures a future for PC in the longer term, i.e. into and beyond the 2020's. Otherwise, Hampshire here we come... eventually).

Only thing iScotland would have to do is establish a regulator. Not beyond the wit of those who work in the industry, given the nature of the industry.
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Old 3rd Sep 2014, 08:21
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Mad Jock


Many thanks for the correction and the rest of the info.. Sounds like you have a better system up there ... especially re. clamping!
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Old 3rd Sep 2014, 08:45
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rab-k, I think the question is more "would NATS want to maintain 2 centres and the associated doubling of running costs, given the fact Swanwick is big enough to hold both?". Or indeed is Prestwick big enough to hold both? And is this question independent of Scottish independence?
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