What to do after 2nd application to AirServices (Australia)
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What to do after 2nd application to AirServices (Australia)
I want more than anything to be an air traffic controller and I have wanted to be for most of my adult life.
Unfortunately I have had two unsuccessful applications with AirServices and they're not willing to accept a third application from me. The web form will allow me to fill in all the details including a response to the question:
(Which becomes available if you say you have already applied twice)
The response I gave was:
But once clicking submit the application is not accepted due to my saying I had already applied twice. I emailed recruitment directly and received a response basically saying:
"Our record shows that you have already applied twice" - Sorry.
(without the sorry)
...
Being a pacifist at heart and holding much disdain for the armed services I found it very difficult to bring myself to apply to the air force but I did eventually apply but was however denied on medical grounds -which is completely ridiculous! The grounds on which I was found "medically unfit" was so ridiculous I appealed the ruling but unsurprisingly was not successful.
I am now wondering what options I have left and am considering applying for ATC training in other countries. I am now 35 years old and am concerned I may be running out of time but am looking into the possibility of training over in New Zealand.
After poring over the web "Airways" website for a while I see the course requires an upfront payment of NZ$13,000 (which I would be willing to pay) but requires that we attend a psychometric evaluation in either Auckland, Wellington or Christchurch. I would of course be willing to move to New Zealand to do the training but would prefer not to have to fly over there unless it were for the training.
Are there any other options that might be available?
Unfortunately I have had two unsuccessful applications with AirServices and they're not willing to accept a third application from me. The web form will allow me to fill in all the details including a response to the question:
Please detail why you believe your application with Airservices Australia would be successful this time
The response I gave was:
Although I tested very well and have tremendous desire to succeed as an air traffic controller previously I interviewed poorly, particularly in relation to behavioural questions.
My reason for performing poorly at the interviews was not due to my not being suitable for the position but rather due to me not presenting myself very well. I have since received vocational training in how to present well at such interviews an now having had several real world experiences in which I performed very well have every confidence that I will be able to present myself properly in such an interview.
Having addressed this concern and given my skills and interests I am now confident I have every chance of being successful in the future.
My reason for performing poorly at the interviews was not due to my not being suitable for the position but rather due to me not presenting myself very well. I have since received vocational training in how to present well at such interviews an now having had several real world experiences in which I performed very well have every confidence that I will be able to present myself properly in such an interview.
Having addressed this concern and given my skills and interests I am now confident I have every chance of being successful in the future.
"Our record shows that you have already applied twice" - Sorry.
(without the sorry)
...
Being a pacifist at heart and holding much disdain for the armed services I found it very difficult to bring myself to apply to the air force but I did eventually apply but was however denied on medical grounds -which is completely ridiculous! The grounds on which I was found "medically unfit" was so ridiculous I appealed the ruling but unsurprisingly was not successful.
I am now wondering what options I have left and am considering applying for ATC training in other countries. I am now 35 years old and am concerned I may be running out of time but am looking into the possibility of training over in New Zealand.
After poring over the web "Airways" website for a while I see the course requires an upfront payment of NZ$13,000 (which I would be willing to pay) but requires that we attend a psychometric evaluation in either Auckland, Wellington or Christchurch. I would of course be willing to move to New Zealand to do the training but would prefer not to have to fly over there unless it were for the training.
Are there any other options that might be available?
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What to do after 2nd application to AirServices (Australia)
Three sides to every tale, yours, theirs, and the truth. One notes that you mention the medical ruling but not what the reason for it's being used to turn you down. Point in hand, friend of mine will tell you that he was "a little breathless" as a child...his doctor filed it as "asthmatic symptoms". Guess how far his pilot career went with that in his history.
But...yeah...even in your reasoning, you are stating outright yourself that in and of yourself, you don't have what it takes to pass the interview with highly specific training. If they've got a choice of someone who walks the interview or someone who failed at it twice already...
But...yeah...even in your reasoning, you are stating outright yourself that in and of yourself, you don't have what it takes to pass the interview with highly specific training. If they've got a choice of someone who walks the interview or someone who failed at it twice already...
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Being a passifest at heart and holding much distane for...
May want to work on your spelling first. Pacifist and disdain.
May want to work on your spelling first. Pacifist and disdain.
BTW: I did actually look both those words up before posting.
I originally had 'passifast' to which Google said "Did you mean: passifest".
And a Google for 'distane' returns:
what does distane mean?
The definition of 'Disdain' is to have a lack of respect and feelings of deeply disliking. Disdain also is the meaning given to someone that oneself thinks is beneath them.
The definition of 'Disdain' is to have a lack of respect and feelings of deeply disliking. Disdain also is the meaning given to someone that oneself thinks is beneath them.
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Three sides to every tale, yours, theirs, and the truth.
I think all sides are in agreement here though.
(BTW, I'm not trying to discuss a dispute I'm having, I'm trying to lay out the position I'm in)
One notes that you mention the medical ruling but not what the reason for it's being used to turn you down...
I had suffered migraines between the ages of about 12 and 15. Without going into too much detail the conditions say having had any more than one migraine in your life could potentially be enough to exclude you. The migraines I did have were during my adolescence (essentially during puberty) and it has now been 20 years since I've had one. Unfortunately ATC is considered to be part of "Air Crew" and air crew have the strictest medical requirements of all sections in the Australian Defence Force. When I appealed the ruling I included a report from a Neurologist in which the doctor said that I posed little to no risk and that I was at no higher risk to further attacks than anyone else in my age bracket etc. Of course having medical rulings overturned is very difficult at the best of times and unsurprisingly my appeal was not successful. But there you have it.
even in your reasoning, you are stating outright yourself that in and of yourself, you don't have what it takes to pass the interview with highly specific training.
Did you mean: "you don't have what it takes to pass the interview without highly specific training"?
Anyway, yeah, I interviewed very poorly. I asked about it after and got quite a bit of detailed and specific feedback about my interview, for which I am most grateful. As it was I scored 1 out of 5 on each and every question
.They asked questions like "Tell us about a time where you've had difficulty dealing with someone of a different culture and what did you do to resolve the situation", which is a perfectly fine question. However I gave really shallow and useless answers like "I get along well with all manor of people and have never had trouble dealing with people of different cultures". Of course I'm summarising my answer here but essentially the feedback I got was that I didn't really answer the questions with any depth, which is true.
To be honest I really didn't have answers to most of the questions they asked and I was really struggling to come up with things to say. Since then I have had other interviews and learnt how to answer such questions much more fully.
I think many people would struggle to interview well with out training/experience and I don't think there is anything wrong with seeking assistance with interview technique, I just wish I had done it before
If they've got a choice of someone who walks the interview or someone who failed at it twice already...
Anyway, all this is by the by...
I'm not trying to say they did the wrong thing and convince you all that I have been mistreated.
I accept where I am at and am wanting to know what options I have from here going forward - or are you saying that really I'm out of options and need to give up?
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Age 35? Don't they have an age limit for hiring ATC's? 35 is a bit old for starting in this career.
I was concerned about this myself and specifically asked about it in the interview and was told they had taken on an ATC for training who was in his 40's. 35 is most defiantly pushing the upper limits but Air Services themselves said if they were to get 10 years service out of me they would consider it a win.
2 strikes and you're out. This is the same all the way through ATC training and even in the field. They do this because it doesn't give you time to prepare. ATC is about being confronted by a problem, and coming up with a suitable solution (but not necessarily the best) 1st time.
You could try Airways, but beware, their recruitment process is almost identical. Yes you will have to go to New Zealand for the testing as it is done in the classroom. If you pass that they will fly you at their expense to Christchurch for the Assessment centre and interview.
While they won't be able to specifically tell you that you've not been accepted due to your age, it may well be the case. Having ATC trainees your age makes them very nervous. It's not about how many years of service they will get from you. It is about the ability of people to 'learn new tricks' as they get older.
You could try Airways, but beware, their recruitment process is almost identical. Yes you will have to go to New Zealand for the testing as it is done in the classroom. If you pass that they will fly you at their expense to Christchurch for the Assessment centre and interview.
While they won't be able to specifically tell you that you've not been accepted due to your age, it may well be the case. Having ATC trainees your age makes them very nervous. It's not about how many years of service they will get from you. It is about the ability of people to 'learn new tricks' as they get older.
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Thank you Charlie, that's the kind of information I'm after.
Perhaps I'm being naive here but being all but identical actually seems like a good thing to me.
I basically made it all the way through before but had no idea how to interview, which is something I now know how to do, so I'm thinking being the same would be a good thing.
Yes, this is true.
Perhaps I could call them and ask clearly about this, raising the concern my self. I know there bound by equal opportunity carry on and so forth but I don't want to waste their time any more than I want to waste mine, so hopefully they will give me a straight answer.
And thank you for saying so Charlie, this is also something I am concious of as well.
I of course am very confident that I'm capable of learning and performing the duties required and clearly wouldn't be going through this process if I thought otherwise. I mean, I most certainly do not want to be responsible for putting the safety of others in jeopardy any more than anyone else does. I am also aware that people have a tendency to overestimate there own abilities in such matters but what can I say, I think I'll be up to it. If it turns out that, despite my testing well, I do have a deficiency in terms of 'learning new tricks' than this will surely become apparent and then well what can I say, I guess I'll become another statistic and go home with my tail between my legs
. As I say I think this unlikely but as you point out convincing others (including yourself) that I am worthy of an opportunity is the challenge.
Perhaps I should start another thread with this question but I am wondering how the Australian and New Zealand courses compare. You say the selection process is very similar but I am wondering how similar the training itself is. For example the Aust. course is 14 months (for en route) where as the NZ course is only 6 months followed by on the job training. Presumably both institutions recognise the other's qualification but I would be interested to know how they differ.
All the best,
And thank you for your responses so far,
Slarti.
You could try Airways, but beware, their recruitment process is almost identical.
I basically made it all the way through before but had no idea how to interview, which is something I now know how to do, so I'm thinking being the same would be a good thing.
While they won't be able to specifically tell you that you've not been accepted due to your age, it may well be the case.
Perhaps I could call them and ask clearly about this, raising the concern my self. I know there bound by equal opportunity carry on and so forth but I don't want to waste their time any more than I want to waste mine, so hopefully they will give me a straight answer.
Having ATC trainees your age makes them very nervous. It's not about how many years of service they will get from you. It is about the ability of people to 'learn new tricks' as they get older.
I of course am very confident that I'm capable of learning and performing the duties required and clearly wouldn't be going through this process if I thought otherwise. I mean, I most certainly do not want to be responsible for putting the safety of others in jeopardy any more than anyone else does. I am also aware that people have a tendency to overestimate there own abilities in such matters but what can I say, I think I'll be up to it. If it turns out that, despite my testing well, I do have a deficiency in terms of 'learning new tricks' than this will surely become apparent and then well what can I say, I guess I'll become another statistic and go home with my tail between my legs
. As I say I think this unlikely but as you point out convincing others (including yourself) that I am worthy of an opportunity is the challenge.Perhaps I should start another thread with this question but I am wondering how the Australian and New Zealand courses compare. You say the selection process is very similar but I am wondering how similar the training itself is. For example the Aust. course is 14 months (for en route) where as the NZ course is only 6 months followed by on the job training. Presumably both institutions recognise the other's qualification but I would be interested to know how they differ.
All the best,
And thank you for your responses so far,
Slarti.
In both cases from zero to rating standard takes around 18 months. Airways have slightly more on the job training, and Airservices have slightly more simulator.
If you decide to go to Airways, you will almost certainly go to a regional tower.
I have been through both recruitment processes and training so if you want to ask more specific questions PM me.
If you decide to go to Airways, you will almost certainly go to a regional tower.
I have been through both recruitment processes and training so if you want to ask more specific questions PM me.
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S.Bartfast, so what you are saying is - you failed to get into AirServices but you want to apply to Airways in order to leave as soon as possible to go back to Oz... Hence your question of whether the NZ licence is recognised in Australia, no? I hope that Airways will recognise this in the interview stage (should you get that far)...
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you failed to get into AirServices but you want to apply to Airways...
... in order to leave as soon as possible to go back to Oz...
It's true that my first preference would have been to do the training here in Australia but we don't always gets what we wants. What I want is to be an air traffic controller and if I can do it in New Zealand then all well and good. My reason for asking about how the training differs is because I genuinely want to know what the differences are, not because I want to "love 'em and leave 'em" so to speak.
In terms of commitment (which is what I think your getting at) surely I've demonstrated commitment and by actually moving to NZ I would be demonstrating an even stronger commitment.
Or are you concerned about the investment in training...
With the air force there was a requirement to make a commitment of 7 years in order to be trained (which I was willing to do).
From memory it was something like 5 years with AirServices (which I would have gladly done).
I'm not sure what it would be with Airways (New Zealand) but given you actually pay for the course upfront I would assume the required service would have to be less. That being said though I could well spend the remainder of my career there.
It's air traffic control that I want to do, and lets face it, working a tower in NZ could well be more appealing than being posted to a dust bowl out the back of Burke anyhow.
To be honest I really don't mind where I work. It was a requirement when I applied with AirServices that I be willing to be posted to any tower in Australia. If it said I had to be willing to be posted to any tower in Australia or New Zealand I would have agreed to that too, and would have been happy to have been posted to NZ.
I hope that Airways will recognise this in the interview stage (should you get that far)...
I'm trying to workout what possibilities there might be for me but it seems as though I invite an attack every time I open my mouth.
What's this about?
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...I have been through both recruitment processes and training so if you want to ask more specific questions PM me.
I will get my thoughts together and send you a PM.
Cheers,
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Do you have the right to live in Europe/the UK? If you don't mind where you end up, you could try and apply for Eurocontrol (though I think they have an age limit) or Nats. If all that fails, you could always go down the self-sponsored route there and hope for the best afterwards - last I heard there were a couple of colleges offering self-sponsored ATC training in the UK - either ICAO or UK specific...
I wasn't happy about your implying that because you failed in Oz you wanted to try NZ because you sounded like you thought it would be easier to get into Airways (why would it??) and you don't want to stick around long anyway. There are plenty of people that do want to stick around, and you would be taking one of their places (of which there aren't many)...
I wasn't happy about your implying that because you failed in Oz you wanted to try NZ because you sounded like you thought it would be easier to get into Airways (why would it??) and you don't want to stick around long anyway. There are plenty of people that do want to stick around, and you would be taking one of their places (of which there aren't many)...
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So what was the reason you failed twice? You allude to the fact that you don't interview well, but was that the reason you missed out, or was it another part of the assessment? If it was the interview, which part, because my interview was a bit like a chat in the pub? The lady that interviewed me reckoned her job was great, because she got to learn all about other people's jobs.
If you're the kind of person that doesn't communicate well, then guess what, you're not going to become an ATC, because that's what the job is.
If you're the kind of person that doesn't communicate well, then guess what, you're not going to become an ATC, because that's what the job is.
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It was the "Behavioural Panel Interview".
It was the very last stage of the process.
From memory there was:
Online Forms
Online Testing
Phone Interview
Psychometric Testing (this was the hard one)
Finally a the "Behavioural Panel Interview"
(Optionally they also had a final psychological test but it wasn't used in my year)
There were 3 or four people on the panel and from memory they asked 5 "Behavioural Style" questions such as "Tell us about a time where you've had difficulty dealing with someone of a different culture and what did you do to resolve the situation...". I think a big part of the problem was that I actually treated it too much like a "pub chat". I had never done a behavioural panel interview before and, well, got it completely wrong.
I'm told they have now removed this step and have significantly changed the psychometric testing to incorporate more group work and social skills, which is actually the kind of stuff I'm pretty good at.
(given the amount of resistance I seem to be encountering in this thread one could be forgiven for doubting my ability to communicate but usually I do pretty well - hehe)
Anyway the second time, astoundingly, it was actually the phone interview that did me in. It's really not worth going into the details of how I messed it up but suffice to say I completely did myself in on what should have been an absolute cake walk; but as I say, it's really not worth going in to.
It was the very last stage of the process.
From memory there was:
Online Forms
Online Testing
Phone Interview
Psychometric Testing (this was the hard one)
Finally a the "Behavioural Panel Interview"
(Optionally they also had a final psychological test but it wasn't used in my year)
There were 3 or four people on the panel and from memory they asked 5 "Behavioural Style" questions such as "Tell us about a time where you've had difficulty dealing with someone of a different culture and what did you do to resolve the situation...". I think a big part of the problem was that I actually treated it too much like a "pub chat". I had never done a behavioural panel interview before and, well, got it completely wrong.
I'm told they have now removed this step and have significantly changed the psychometric testing to incorporate more group work and social skills, which is actually the kind of stuff I'm pretty good at.
(given the amount of resistance I seem to be encountering in this thread one could be forgiven for doubting my ability to communicate but usually I do pretty well - hehe)
Anyway the second time, astoundingly, it was actually the phone interview that did me in. It's really not worth going into the details of how I messed it up but suffice to say I completely did myself in on what should have been an absolute cake walk; but as I say, it's really not worth going in to.
Last edited by S.Bartfast; 7th May 2014 at 13:18. Reason: Remembered the optional psychological test round
Having trained a whole heap of ATCs over the years, I find that in probably 2 minutes of conversation I can pick those that will or won't make it. The interview part of the intakes is very telling. To be blunt, if you have been told twice you are not suitable, perhaps it is time to move on. Probably the worst outcome would be bluffing your way through then washing out on course. Worse still would be getting endorsed then messing something up big time. (Touch wood)
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Alternatively, going back many years, someone could take five or six attempts to finally get selected.
Then go on to be top of their course, validate positions at the busiest and second busiest airports their country has to offer, become an OJTI, examiner and lead a successful and enjoyable career as an ATCO.
Or they could just have given up after the second rejection.
S.Bartfast, I wish you the best of luck.
Then go on to be top of their course, validate positions at the busiest and second busiest airports their country has to offer, become an OJTI, examiner and lead a successful and enjoyable career as an ATCO.
Or they could just have given up after the second rejection.
S.Bartfast, I wish you the best of luck.
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What to do after 2nd application to AirServices (Australia)
I agree with Warped Factor. If this is what you really want then keep going for it. Don't let randoms on a forum put you off!
You're not too old. Older than most trainees, granted, but I know people who started a few years later than you and successfully validated.
Be prepared though. It's a tough process, and it only gets more difficult after the selection stages. People have compared the college course to a three year degree crammed into 12 months and that's no exaggeration. Unit training - even more intense.
As for the interview questions, they sound similar to the NATS questions. You've had two shots so you get the idea. Get a pad and write down as many examples where you displayed some of the key skills that the interviewer will be digging for. Commit them to memory and deliver them with enthusiasm when asked.
Best of luck
You're not too old. Older than most trainees, granted, but I know people who started a few years later than you and successfully validated.
Be prepared though. It's a tough process, and it only gets more difficult after the selection stages. People have compared the college course to a three year degree crammed into 12 months and that's no exaggeration. Unit training - even more intense.
As for the interview questions, they sound similar to the NATS questions. You've had two shots so you get the idea. Get a pad and write down as many examples where you displayed some of the key skills that the interviewer will be digging for. Commit them to memory and deliver them with enthusiasm when asked.
Best of luck