request/confirm
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oxon
Age: 47
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
request/confirm
Over the last few years I've heard alot of guys and girls who wanted to do or ask for something and begin there transmission with "request" and wait fot the usual response " pass your message" even when the frequency was quiet. And also guys reading back a clearance with the word "confirm" at the end of it. I personally find it annoying being flight crew. Alot of these types of transmissions result in 5 transmisions instead of 3. Surely if you want to request something just do it staight away. If you are unsure of what you have heard you should just say "say again". I know it sounds petty but when you hear it every day it starts to grind. I don't ever recall being taught this kind of RT at ppl level.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Age: 45
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're right, if you haven't heard me properly, don't take a guess at the clearance and tag confirm on at the end, a simple say again is all it takes. As for the "request" transmission. Don't bother with it for anything run of the mill like a level change, direct route etc. It's just a waste of time on the frequency. Although I will say that if you are going to make a request that involves me taking down notes (message to pass on to someone, details of medical emergency etc) then it might be worth teeing me up for that just to make sure I'm ready to copy.
redflyer; Can you see what the controller is doing when you launch into a long tirade requesting something? They may for instance, have an emergency and be communicating with rescue services by telephone.
Apart from that it's bloody rude.
Apart from that it's bloody rude.
Last edited by chevvron; 7th Apr 2014 at 13:01.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oxon
Age: 47
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not talking about requesting to tell the controller my whole life story and what he had for breakfast. I'm talking about people just saying request when they want to avoid weather or want a different cruising level. Only recently the guy sitting next to me just said "request" with usual response by the controller of "pass your message". All I wanted to do was turn right 20 deg for weather. So five transmissions later I got the turn. Surely all these extra transmissions for day to day things make more unnecessary work for a controller. It is just a pet hate of mine along with people saying "with you". Now that really is stating the obvious.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oxon
Age: 47
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CAP 413 was created for a reason and that was not to add ambiguous phraseology. The above phrases are definitely not in CAP 413. If a controller is busy dealing with an emergency I'm pretty sure I would have heard it having been on the frequency. I certainly wouldn't be requesting requests.
Emergencies can occur on other frequencies which will affect your controller without you ever knowing about it. Even if there's no emergency and the controller is just on the phone carrying out co-ordination it's possible he wouldn't catch your message the first time.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oxon
Age: 47
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All I would like to hear is my colleagues being more disciplined when it comes to RT. rarely do I hear an atco stray from what's expected of them. On my line checks we are checked on RT discipline. I constantly hear controllers telling pilots to "continue approach" with a response of wilco, at worst a double click of the PTT. This sort of lack of discipline from the basics does cause accidents and history has proven so.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: USA
Age: 66
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Redflyer
As a fairly recently retired controller I agree with every word. If the guy on the ground is busy and has to PRIORITISE the responses then "stand by" is what you will expect. If there is all hell breaking out then the imposition of SILENCE is available.
Chevron.....what is more likely on a minute by minute shift? Regular requests and bread and butter clearances or constant emergencies on multiple frequencies which requires your steely eyed missile man input?
LCE's constantly checked that my R/T was up to scratch. The tapes were pulled on a random basis and analysed,you NEVER knew when it was your turn. If you failed ( in any way ) it lead to a chat with the LCE .
CAP 413 is there for a reason.
As a fairly recently retired controller I agree with every word. If the guy on the ground is busy and has to PRIORITISE the responses then "stand by" is what you will expect. If there is all hell breaking out then the imposition of SILENCE is available.
Chevron.....what is more likely on a minute by minute shift? Regular requests and bread and butter clearances or constant emergencies on multiple frequencies which requires your steely eyed missile man input?
LCE's constantly checked that my R/T was up to scratch. The tapes were pulled on a random basis and analysed,you NEVER knew when it was your turn. If you failed ( in any way ) it lead to a chat with the LCE .
CAP 413 is there for a reason.
My advice is it depends where you are flying.
If you are flying through EU- just go straight into it. There are usually 2 controllers working one sector- one executive and one planner.
If you are flying through a second tier airspace eg- China, russia, Middle east, indonesia or a third tier' provider eg- australia, Moresby, give the controller a warning if it something complicated. The reason is this- they are on their own- eg they have to co-ordinate everything while listening to the frequency, or, the English become a problem when it something non standard.
have fun
If you are flying through EU- just go straight into it. There are usually 2 controllers working one sector- one executive and one planner.
If you are flying through a second tier airspace eg- China, russia, Middle east, indonesia or a third tier' provider eg- australia, Moresby, give the controller a warning if it something complicated. The reason is this- they are on their own- eg they have to co-ordinate everything while listening to the frequency, or, the English become a problem when it something non standard.
have fun
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: EGPH
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Continue approach". "Wilco"
Got me thinking, what's wrong with that?
Looking at CAP413, section 2.1 Table 1 it looks like an instruction to me.
That table says if the instruction is short, clear and unambiguous then "Roger" or "Wilco" as appropriate is preferred for the sake of brevity in the use of r/t time.
Got me thinking, what's wrong with that?
Looking at CAP413, section 2.1 Table 1 it looks like an instruction to me.
That table says if the instruction is short, clear and unambiguous then "Roger" or "Wilco" as appropriate is preferred for the sake of brevity in the use of r/t time.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: etha
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And what does CAP 413 give as a guidance on a "quiet" frequency that may just have several/many data-linking capable aircraft....... It is very easy to assume. If it is an unusual or long request, I would much prefer a pilot to say "request" and wait for a "pass your message", even more so as I'll be scrabbling around to see who has a scrap of paper and possibly a pen that works so I may even write some of it down.
I definitely offer the same service in reverse......
I definitely offer the same service in reverse......
PPRuNe Bashaholic
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 1997
Location: The Peoples Alcoholic Republic of Jockistan
Posts: 1,442
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it's a level change, heading change (for weather, etc), or a route request, just ask for it. In the unlikely event that I have higher priority tasks, I will ask you to standby or will have already imposed radio silence. Increasing RT workload by pre-empting run of the mill pilot requests with a 'request' for a request is crazy.
On the 2nd part of the post,you can either use 'Say again' or ask me to confirm cleared level, heading or waypoint/route. I would rather we were both clear on the clearance issued in all circumstances, than leaving it to an assumption on both our parts.
On the 2nd part of the post,you can either use 'Say again' or ask me to confirm cleared level, heading or waypoint/route. I would rather we were both clear on the clearance issued in all circumstances, than leaving it to an assumption on both our parts.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oxon
Age: 47
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I totally agree with unusual and long requests. Considering nearly everyone who takes an RT written exam gets 100% at ATPL level it still amazes me at the lack of correct phraseology once on the line. Don't jump on the the band wagon when you hear a phrase like "request" or "confirm". It's not correct and if you decide to use it, as some posts have said, use it when it's an unusual request.
forgot to add "with you". Please!
forgot to add "with you". Please!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know for sure I will get flamed for this.. but it needs to be said:
Why is it always the Brits that start threads like this??
I know UK is land of order, SOP and enforcement. I live there. But common sense, please! Believe it or not, there is a world outside of CAP413. And IMHO, the best ATC system in the world is in the US. Able to handle all sorts of traffic with efficiency and they'd be laughing at this hair splitting.
confirm, request, with you.. not technically in any book but has it killed anyone so far? And without writing a book as to why, I think they all have a useful purpose (except for possibly with you, that's just cool
)
Ok.. hat, coat, door
Over to the Brits!
Why is it always the Brits that start threads like this??
I know UK is land of order, SOP and enforcement. I live there. But common sense, please! Believe it or not, there is a world outside of CAP413. And IMHO, the best ATC system in the world is in the US. Able to handle all sorts of traffic with efficiency and they'd be laughing at this hair splitting.
confirm, request, with you.. not technically in any book but has it killed anyone so far? And without writing a book as to why, I think they all have a useful purpose (except for possibly with you, that's just cool
)Ok.. hat, coat, door
Over to the Brits!
Last edited by 172_driver; 9th Apr 2014 at 19:22.
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oxon
Age: 47
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All I can say is the that US pilots are definitely the best at saying "say again" as a good few seem incapable of listening and reading back atc instructions first time whilst flying in european airspace. 