Combined radar and tower
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@NQWhy
I assume your talking about a procedural service and if so that's already been mentioned above.
Procedural services haven't been used/taught within NATS for years. You have to talk to controllers who are just about to retire who then only just remember them. They also tell me that there was a dedicated met officer based there doing the observations. So it might be legal but in reality it hasn't been used for donkeys, probably because of the development of radar and increasing traffic levels. So at my unit (and probably all other NATS units) it is not approved/legal. If the radar was to fail, movements stop.
Years ago at units where they used to do procedural services who got radars installed, I can imagine that most if not all controllers were more than happy to forget about procedural services and have another ATCO providing a dedicated radar service.
I assume your talking about a procedural service and if so that's already been mentioned above.
Procedural services haven't been used/taught within NATS for years. You have to talk to controllers who are just about to retire who then only just remember them. They also tell me that there was a dedicated met officer based there doing the observations. So it might be legal but in reality it hasn't been used for donkeys, probably because of the development of radar and increasing traffic levels. So at my unit (and probably all other NATS units) it is not approved/legal. If the radar was to fail, movements stop.
Years ago at units where they used to do procedural services who got radars installed, I can imagine that most if not all controllers were more than happy to forget about procedural services and have another ATCO providing a dedicated radar service.
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Originally Posted by WorkInProgress
So at my unit (and probably all other NATS units) it is not approved/legal. If the radar was to fail, movements stop.
I do believe that the APS course at the college still also teach radar-fail procedures including non-radar approach.
Do those units 'trialling' this procedure have a separate GMC position? I can't see an aerodrome controller vectoring inbounds whilst obtaining and passing IFR clearances plus operating stop bars etc.
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@Glamdring
Don't confuse radar fail procedures with a procedural service, because it's not the same thing. Correct me if I'm wrong but you won't have an entry in your license saying 'procedural' unless you either joined before 1992(ish) or have been to a non-NATS college.
Radar fail procedures are designed to give controllers guidance in how to safely work traffic immediately after the radar has failed i.e, essential traffic info and emergency seperatation (500ft). Once a safe situation is obtained and traffic is passed to a radar unit/sector your movements will stop until the radar is back in service.
Radar fail procedures are taught at the college and included in radar validations and annual truce (training in unusual situations and emergencies), but it isn't a continuous procedural service.
Don't confuse radar fail procedures with a procedural service, because it's not the same thing. Correct me if I'm wrong but you won't have an entry in your license saying 'procedural' unless you either joined before 1992(ish) or have been to a non-NATS college.
Radar fail procedures are designed to give controllers guidance in how to safely work traffic immediately after the radar has failed i.e, essential traffic info and emergency seperatation (500ft). Once a safe situation is obtained and traffic is passed to a radar unit/sector your movements will stop until the radar is back in service.
Radar fail procedures are taught at the college and included in radar validations and annual truce (training in unusual situations and emergencies), but it isn't a continuous procedural service.
Last edited by WorkInProgress; 20th Feb 2014 at 18:23.
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I get what you're saying and yes I don't have an APP ticket and it is not taught at the college. However, part of both our radar-fail course and the college course covers continued operation without radar. What is the point of including this if we are not expected to continue with some movements after a radar fail.
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This scenario occurred on one of our TRUCE days, about 6 years ago.
A gradual, and then total radar failure was simulated.
After the 'traffic dispersal', our instructor, who had no approach or procedural area experience told us we would be expected to keep moving the traffic.
We had no procedures, or deemed separations to consult.
'Clocks off'.
A gradual, and then total radar failure was simulated.
After the 'traffic dispersal', our instructor, who had no approach or procedural area experience told us we would be expected to keep moving the traffic.
We had no procedures, or deemed separations to consult.
'Clocks off'.
Thread Starter
Basically Is it safe?
Is it just me, but it cant possibly be safe to monitor the apron,fire vehicles,ops guys,lighting panels,WIP,aircraft moving,aircraft taking off,aircraft landing while vectoring on radar other inbounds.
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I wouldn't have thought so either but we have had no replies from those units where it has been trialled and so know nothing about the criteria required. Belfast input anyone?
I don't know the pressures under which the regulators are operating here; but it's my guess that they are succombing to them more than they are upholding ATC standards !
Thread Starter
And there is more.....
And LVPs and snow clearance and tower distractions and met obs(because Atca. levels have been cut) hey and even a pee break !
Face it the dumbing down of atc is on going!
Face it the dumbing down of atc is on going!
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In France it is quite common to have TWR+Radar together at quieter airfields and at night in bigger ones. I think they even do it on occasion in CDG.
As a pilot, if there is only one controller available at an airport I would much rather the airborne service be radar based than procedural thank-you-very-much. Other places in the world, when a radar picture is available even FISOs will have one and provide traffic information, but for some reason this is impossible in the UK
As a pilot, if there is only one controller available at an airport I would much rather the airborne service be radar based than procedural thank-you-very-much. Other places in the world, when a radar picture is available even FISOs will have one and provide traffic information, but for some reason this is impossible in the UK
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The procedure is now in MATS2 and is covered by NATS "copyright" as it were. I CAN say that it is operated under strict conditions and during periods of VERY QUIET traffic rates. Probably ONE inbound on radar and certainly not when as Chevron posits
In all honesty if you work at a unit with the traffic levels requiring GMC Tower and radar in the middle of the night.....this procedure is NOT going to be for you.
I can offer no further insights and thus (as a retired and no longer valid or current ATCO) I shall bow out.
Do those units 'trialling' this procedure have a separate GMC position? I can't see an aerodrome controller vectoring inbounds whilst obtaining and passing IFR clearances plus operating stop bars etc.
I can offer no further insights and thus (as a retired and no longer valid or current ATCO) I shall bow out.
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Class 'A" controllers take a while to get their heads round class 'D' never mind class 'G" as they are more used to everything having to be separated so the idea of only providing traffic info takes a bit of getting used to. But they are all smart guys/girls so it doesn't take long!
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<<years of restriction to heli ops around LHR?>>
I don't recall any major restrictions and I was a radar controller there for 31 years! Particular routes were there for a purpose - safety. However, ATC did everything possible to accommodate traffic off the routes when necessary.
I don't recall any major restrictions and I was a radar controller there for 31 years! Particular routes were there for a purpose - safety. However, ATC did everything possible to accommodate traffic off the routes when necessary.
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Doesn't heathrow have controllers with ADI only though? If so how can approach radar be done from the tower as they don't have the rating to allow them to do so.
Also surely if radar would be done from the tower everyone has to be trained and validated on radar first, which must be a massive project?
Or have I missed something?
Also surely if radar would be done from the tower everyone has to be trained and validated on radar first, which must be a massive project?
Or have I missed something?
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Crazy Voyager. When the Approach Radar unit moved to West Drayton the powers that be decided that one of the world's leading airfields did not need controllers with radar ratings in the tower and with staff changes it wasn't long before many controllers at Heathrow only held tower ratings. A peculiar by-product of this lunacy was that in the event of a go-around in conflict with a departure off the other runway they could not issue radar headings!!
MF.. I simply cannot understand why helicopters cannot operate into Egham but I come from the days when we were encouraged to use out initiatives..
MF.. I simply cannot understand why helicopters cannot operate into Egham but I come from the days when we were encouraged to use out initiatives..
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Doesn't heathrow have controllers with ADI only though? If so how can approach radar be done from the tower as they don't have the rating to allow them to do so.
Also surely if radar would be done from the tower everyone has to be trained and validated on radar first, which must be a massive project?
Or have I missed something?
Also surely if radar would be done from the tower everyone has to be trained and validated on radar first, which must be a massive project?
Or have I missed something?
I was staying away but CRAZY Voyager ....really....this is about LOW traffic volumes . No one is suggesting that Heathrow is a candidate for RIT. This procedure is used at night when traffic is EXTREMELY light. The ATCOS have to hold ALL appropriate ratings before they can do RIT. Thinking about it is Hounslow even open at night?
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As an extra LHR "opinion" on the heli ops into Egham.
Whilst you as the pilot of the heli might be able to see the inbound and outbound traffic, (and perhaps you can assume the pilots of said inbound and outbound traffic can see you) for ATC to provide separation between your hell into Egham and the Heathrow IFR traffic there needs to be a set of criteria applied.
One of these is maintaining visual contact with traffic. Not always easy to see a helicopter in the Egham area despite what the weather reports say and how the weather looks in the immdiate vicinty of the Egham area.
Class D "might" assist in this, but until the procedures are decided it would be remiss to assume they will enable freedom for hell ops around Heathrow.
Whilst you as the pilot of the heli might be able to see the inbound and outbound traffic, (and perhaps you can assume the pilots of said inbound and outbound traffic can see you) for ATC to provide separation between your hell into Egham and the Heathrow IFR traffic there needs to be a set of criteria applied.
One of these is maintaining visual contact with traffic. Not always easy to see a helicopter in the Egham area despite what the weather reports say and how the weather looks in the immdiate vicinty of the Egham area.
Class D "might" assist in this, but until the procedures are decided it would be remiss to assume they will enable freedom for hell ops around Heathrow.