Combined radar and tower
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Answer me this. What is the difference between doing approach procedural and tower combined and approach radar with tower combined? Answer- one has been legal for many decades the other has not? Why not? What's the difference? IMHO approach procedural requires far more concentration than approach radar (I've done both for many years) so I would far rather (with appropriate restrictions/conditions) do a bit of approach radar in the tower than have to do full on procedural because of some outdated rule that nova body can quite remember why was introduced.
The reason this has come up now is because NATS dispensed with its ability to do approach procedural many years ago (rightly or wrongly) and so this is its only real option...and I'll lay money no non-NATS units get approval to do it.
The reason this has come up now is because NATS dispensed with its ability to do approach procedural many years ago (rightly or wrongly) and so this is its only real option...and I'll lay money no non-NATS units get approval to do it.
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Originally Posted by Plain Crazy
IMHO approach procedural requires far more concentration than approach radar (I've done both for many years) so I would far rather (with appropriate restrictions/conditions) do a bit of approach radar in the tower than have to do full on procedural
StandupfortheUlstermen
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You can cut your night manning by 50%.
Ha ha ha, thanks Nimmer! Will I, as part of the watch management team, be exempt from being sliced in half or do I get to choose which of my colleagues becomes sushi?!
Just one serious but obviously hypothetical question, at unit X where there are currently three ATCOs on night duty, we'll assume this new plan reduces staffing by 33% thus leaving two on duty. What happens if or when one of the two remaining staff declares unfit for duty and the other ATCO, who would previously have been on nights, has already been re-allocated to other operational duties? How would that be covered? Interesting question don't you think?
Ha ha ha, thanks Nimmer! Will I, as part of the watch management team, be exempt from being sliced in half or do I get to choose which of my colleagues becomes sushi?!
Just one serious but obviously hypothetical question, at unit X where there are currently three ATCOs on night duty, we'll assume this new plan reduces staffing by 33% thus leaving two on duty. What happens if or when one of the two remaining staff declares unfit for duty and the other ATCO, who would previously have been on nights, has already been re-allocated to other operational duties? How would that be covered? Interesting question don't you think?
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Sorry if I appear to be 'stooping low' with this, but I wonder if the managers, accountants and, (dare I say), 'union reps', who have obviously given their endorsement to these cost-saving procedures have forgotten that:-
The 2 most tragic mid-air collisions in European airspace in the last 40 years were, in part, attributable to persons not sitting in seats that should have been occupied.
Also, the loss of Comair 1591, at Lexington, might have been prevented had eyeballs been looking though the VCR windows.
No offence intended to anyone. Stay safe and keep a sharp lookout.
The 2 most tragic mid-air collisions in European airspace in the last 40 years were, in part, attributable to persons not sitting in seats that should have been occupied.
Also, the loss of Comair 1591, at Lexington, might have been prevented had eyeballs been looking though the VCR windows.
No offence intended to anyone. Stay safe and keep a sharp lookout.
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In theory I would assume it can be covered by moving somebody from the afternoon, and then probably give them a day of TOIL to be covered with overtime.
In practice, with the reductions in staffing that seem to be going all over the country, I think (opinion, not fact) that airports will start to close regularly at nights due to staff shortages if staffing is cut much more.
In practice, with the reductions in staffing that seem to be going all over the country, I think (opinion, not fact) that airports will start to close regularly at nights due to staff shortages if staffing is cut much more.
StandupfortheUlstermen
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"In theory I would assume it can be covered by moving somebody from the afternoon, and then probably give them a day of TOIL to be covered with overtime."
Which of course assumes that the person calls in sick prior to the afternoon shift starting and that someone is willing to change shifts at short notice. Good luck with that one!
Which of course assumes that the person calls in sick prior to the afternoon shift starting and that someone is willing to change shifts at short notice. Good luck with that one!
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If the rostered person calls in sick and a replacement can't be found then close the airfield," simples". It's the price the consumer sometimes has to pay when when they want something done on the cheap. The train companies cancel trains at the drop of a hat and people have to put up with it. It's UKPLC 2014, accept it and get on with it
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Is the Radar in the Tower procedure actually requiring the ATCO to vector the inbound or allowing the aircraft to manually position onto the ILS using a RNAV procedure and therefore the ATCO performing a monitoring role only?
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@standardnoise:
That is exactly why I think we will start seeing airfield closures at a regular basis if this is brought in across the board and staffing subsequently cut.
@obwan
I don't have a problem with it, but once again I think that the second we start regulating traffic or closing airfields due to staffing it's not the airfield that will get the bad publicity, it's the ATCOs! Which means we may end up having to adapt a new procedure we don't want, cut staffing even more (which we don't want), the reasoning being the reduction in service. When the service then has to eb reduced (like we said) we will still take the blame, it's no-win situation for the ATCOs if you ask me!
@250kts
As far as I know it's standard radar vectoring.
That is exactly why I think we will start seeing airfield closures at a regular basis if this is brought in across the board and staffing subsequently cut.
@obwan
I don't have a problem with it, but once again I think that the second we start regulating traffic or closing airfields due to staffing it's not the airfield that will get the bad publicity, it's the ATCOs! Which means we may end up having to adapt a new procedure we don't want, cut staffing even more (which we don't want), the reasoning being the reduction in service. When the service then has to eb reduced (like we said) we will still take the blame, it's no-win situation for the ATCOs if you ask me!
@250kts
As far as I know it's standard radar vectoring.
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Interesting comment knots, (greetings by the way, we haven't spoken for ages).
The next question is obviously in the 'monitoring role', what ATC service is the aircraft receiving, (with the terrain-clearance issues,), and also, what would be the tower controller's responsibility if unknown conflicting traffic, (say a night-time VFR nav-ex gone pear-shaped), was observed on the ATM/radar/situation display?
Lots of Interesting 'oral-board' questions ahead.
The next question is obviously in the 'monitoring role', what ATC service is the aircraft receiving, (with the terrain-clearance issues,), and also, what would be the tower controller's responsibility if unknown conflicting traffic, (say a night-time VFR nav-ex gone pear-shaped), was observed on the ATM/radar/situation display?
Lots of Interesting 'oral-board' questions ahead.
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As far as I know it's standard radar vectoring.
Ultimately if it comes in it's the airport operator who takes the risk on the airfield closing should there be sickness.
Hello Zooker
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@250kts,
Exactly the point I was making earlier when I was told by 'lookingforajob' that we should be careful about "waving the safety flag"! I think there is genuine safety concern with this one, whether or not it is 'just a gut feeling or not'.
I would not be happy at my unit doing radar in the tower ( out to 40nm ), providing an aerodrome control service and doing met observations at the same time in LVP conditions with holding traffic. Obviously the met would get neglected, resulting in calls from the met office!
The whole point of this is 100% a money saving exercise. For ATCO's it means working in a more stressful environment where the swiss cheese holes will line up faster. And for management/bean counters and others who get large bonuses for reducing overheads it means in the long term less staff.
It used to be Safe, Orderly and Expeditious. I'd prefer to keep it that way!!
Exactly the point I was making earlier when I was told by 'lookingforajob' that we should be careful about "waving the safety flag"! I think there is genuine safety concern with this one, whether or not it is 'just a gut feeling or not'.
I would not be happy at my unit doing radar in the tower ( out to 40nm ), providing an aerodrome control service and doing met observations at the same time in LVP conditions with holding traffic. Obviously the met would get neglected, resulting in calls from the met office!
The whole point of this is 100% a money saving exercise. For ATCO's it means working in a more stressful environment where the swiss cheese holes will line up faster. And for management/bean counters and others who get large bonuses for reducing overheads it means in the long term less staff.
It used to be Safe, Orderly and Expeditious. I'd prefer to keep it that way!!
Could someone who is involved in the trials enlighten us about what conditons are imposed and how the potential for being interrupted by vehicles or aircraft on the aerodrome frequency is addressed?
2 s
2 s
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WorkinProgress - "I would not be happy at my unit doing radar in the tower ( out to 40nm ), providing an aerodrome control service and doing met observations at the same time in LVP conditions with holding traffic."
Yet this is perfectly legal WITHOUT radar!!
Yet this is perfectly legal WITHOUT radar!!
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NQWhy, there is one, tiny difference: with procedural approach you don't have to stare at the radar screen all the time (while being obliged to look around through the windows at the same time, which is essential to providing aerodrome service).