Problems at Swanwick?
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Narobs
I would seriously doubt a "without notice exercise".....that is NOT how things happen in a live environment. I can see something like that as part of a TRUCE type scenario.
As TMT implies......
the remainder of your post is nonsense.
I would seriously doubt a "without notice exercise".....that is NOT how things happen in a live environment. I can see something like that as part of a TRUCE type scenario.
As TMT implies......
the remainder of your post is nonsense.
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I think you'll find all ATC systems have back-ups. It is only when the main and standby systems fail that there is trouble.
That is why engineering delays are so exceptional.
That is why engineering delays are so exceptional.
FX Guru
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Folks, I don't know much about ATC, but I know a lot about management.
A while ago, someone, somewhere, decided to take a decision which would save money. Money was saved and he was rewarded handsomely. Downstream folk who pondered the wisdom of the money saving were ignored.
Now it's all gone Tango Uniform. But don't worry about our chap. He's retired on a mega-pension.
You know it makes sense.
A while ago, someone, somewhere, decided to take a decision which would save money. Money was saved and he was rewarded handsomely. Downstream folk who pondered the wisdom of the money saving were ignored.
Now it's all gone Tango Uniform. But don't worry about our chap. He's retired on a mega-pension.
You know it makes sense.
None but a blockhead
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I think the VCCS is the Northrup Grumman Park Air Systems GAREX 220 - here's a press release, unfortunately with no year date, which promotes the deal and talks of ongoing relationships.
A bit more digging produced a PDF from an ICAO briefing with some high level technical details of the NATS VCCS network configuration - still marketing flavoured, but more than I've seen in public elsewhere.
A bit more digging produced a PDF from an ICAO briefing with some high level technical details of the NATS VCCS network configuration - still marketing flavoured, but more than I've seen in public elsewhere.
Last edited by Self Loading Freight; 7th Dec 2013 at 17:14.
It means everybody has slept in.
Will it work OK as soon as it gets dark again?
It's the cleaning lady unplugging the radar again so she can plug her Hoover in! 
This is my first visit to ATC issues and I'm delighted to see you're allowed to have a sense of humour on here. I tried a little joke on R & N once and their po-faced mods had it deleted ASAP and I was told to save that stuff for Jet Blast!
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I think the VCCS is the Northrup Grumman Park Air Systems GAREX 220 - here's a press release, unfortunately with no year date, which promotes the deal and talks of ongoing relationships.
Join Date: Oct 2004
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How much would it cost would to have some reserve channels on satellite/microwave link feeding realtime data direct from the UK instrumentation to a handover control ?
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NAROBS
I am certain that there is no "redundant back up next door to the main facility".
angels, I believe I have met, and had 'a conversation' with the individual of whom you speak.
I am certain that there is no "redundant back up next door to the main facility".
angels, I believe I have met, and had 'a conversation' with the individual of whom you speak.
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A while ago, someone, somewhere, decided to take a decision which would save money. Money was saved and he was rewarded handsomely. Downstream folk who pondered the wisdom of the money saving were ignored.
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the thing here is this isn't a safety critical area. so there probably was no need for redundancy. all this is is a failure to be able to switch from night mode to day mode. all it means is they can handle much less traffic. sure it will cost them some money in compensation, but less than if they built in redundancy into every single item!
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ATC backup
I have been on a day visit to NATS and when I suggested what happens if their nice shiny glass roof comes down, I met a few grim faces and was told: "well we are all dispensable", and there is a backup almost next door... one can only guess what "next door" means... in any case they are not down, they have limited capacity, i suppose that a backup facility would have limited capacity as well, due to staff not normally working these sectors and possible same or lower coverage or both.
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Gonzo,
"Where are you getting your fully qualified and current ATCOs to man your mirror of Swanwick, ready to take over via satellite at a moment's notice?"
exactly my point
"Where are you getting your fully qualified and current ATCOs to man your mirror of Swanwick, ready to take over via satellite at a moment's notice?"
exactly my point
Gonzo NAROBS,
Where are you getting your fully qualified and current ATCOs to man your mirror of Swanwick, ready to take over via satellite at a moment's notice?
Where are you getting your fully qualified and current ATCOs to man your mirror of Swanwick, ready to take over via satellite at a moment's notice?
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utter cobblers being talked about the swanwick problem today
Having read the posts for the day I can advise that its pretty much all cobblers and mis informed guesswork.
Nats have a major contingency provision for a Swanwick failure but its never going to be invoked for a problem of this scale.
The systems are fully redundant in thread terms but if the software causes a common mode problem it will affect all the redundancy in the affected systems
NATS would need to fully duplicate all systems at the controller position and the servers and networks on completely different operating systems, platform and application software to negate any common mode faults.
That scale of redundant provision with all the development, support etc overheads would be a massive additional cost and is just a complete non starter
Nats have a major contingency provision for a Swanwick failure but its never going to be invoked for a problem of this scale.
The systems are fully redundant in thread terms but if the software causes a common mode problem it will affect all the redundancy in the affected systems
NATS would need to fully duplicate all systems at the controller position and the servers and networks on completely different operating systems, platform and application software to negate any common mode faults.
That scale of redundant provision with all the development, support etc overheads would be a massive additional cost and is just a complete non starter
None but a blockhead
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Apparently the problem was "it's very big and complicated with over a MEEELION LINES of CODE!". No, I'm not kidding, that is the official reason.
Is this the message NATS wants to deliver - running something right on the edge of manageability that's so complex it can barely be understood? Blaming code size is a very strong indication of design, implementation, testing and/or management flaws - most of which will come back to roost in NATS' own eves.
I don't know the details of the system, nor would I want to speculate about stuff on which I'm that ignorant (would like to know what happened, though)... but I do know something about disaster PR in the tech world...
Is this the message NATS wants to deliver - running something right on the edge of manageability that's so complex it can barely be understood? Blaming code size is a very strong indication of design, implementation, testing and/or management flaws - most of which will come back to roost in NATS' own eves.
I don't know the details of the system, nor would I want to speculate about stuff on which I'm that ignorant (would like to know what happened, though)... but I do know something about disaster PR in the tech world...