'Point-Merge'.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: etha
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's still going!
Expect it in the London TMA for Gatwick and London City soon (April 2014?).
Think Paris will have theirs up and running even sooner, but not sure on exact dates.
Expect it in the London TMA for Gatwick and London City soon (April 2014?).
Think Paris will have theirs up and running even sooner, but not sure on exact dates.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The South
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was led to believe this style of approach system falls apart somewhat during less than favourable weather, requires a large area of airspace to work, and costs the airlines more money in fuel burn due to the fact they have to be lower and slower earlier, whilst flying an arc. I was under the impression that an Aer Lingus skipper visiting Swanwick in the last 12 months said the point merge at Dublin costs the airline just shy of €1million extra in fuel per year.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Above the clouds where the sun is always shining
Age: 33
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In Dublin if you have to fly some of the level segments you won't save any fuel.
But 80% of the time they give you a direct so there isn't any level segment which also saves at least 5 mins in flight time
But 80% of the time they give you a direct so there isn't any level segment which also saves at least 5 mins in flight time
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: T.C.
Age: 55
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
London city and Gatwick 2015, sometime in the year!!!!
Aer Lingus fuel issue is due to their company fuel policy. They fuel for the whole point merge arc, when in reality the point merge arc is just a RNAV vector/lateral hold. Thus this part of the route should be part of an airlines 'contingency or vectoring' fuel allocation. Discussions are ongoing with other airlines also to overcome this issue.
Been interesting to discover how airlines have adapted the amount of fuel they carry into the london TMA, depending on which airport and what time of the day they are landing. Not all carry 'holding' fuel however the ultimate decision what to carry isup to the captain.
Weather and point merge???? Exactly the same as a hold and weather, or any other route and weather. Nothing flies the specified route, or allocated heading, flow control, MDI's, etc all come into play.
Hope this info helps.
Aer Lingus fuel issue is due to their company fuel policy. They fuel for the whole point merge arc, when in reality the point merge arc is just a RNAV vector/lateral hold. Thus this part of the route should be part of an airlines 'contingency or vectoring' fuel allocation. Discussions are ongoing with other airlines also to overcome this issue.
Been interesting to discover how airlines have adapted the amount of fuel they carry into the london TMA, depending on which airport and what time of the day they are landing. Not all carry 'holding' fuel however the ultimate decision what to carry isup to the captain.
Weather and point merge???? Exactly the same as a hold and weather, or any other route and weather. Nothing flies the specified route, or allocated heading, flow control, MDI's, etc all come into play.
Hope this info helps.
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To correct a poster above concerning AL fuel and point merge in Dublin.....At off peak times our flight plans have the shorter Xray point merge arcs. At peak times they have the full Lima arrivals. The LIDO flight plans will take into account the burn and constraints depending on which arrival is filed. ATC cannot and will never ever give us the shorter Xray point merge STAR as it doesn't exist in their world. But it does in LIDO and Jeppesen charts and presumably the Irish AIP.
As pilots we plan on the worst case scenario since we cannot at this point in time do a midair refuel in an Airbus. Consequently if filed on the shorter X-ray arrival most will carry extra to account for having to do the full Lima arrival if its busy.
I understand a half way house between the two is under consideration.
On another note what's the end game? If it ain't broke why try and fix something when a radar vector will suffice. Is it all about reducing the number of controllers? A side effect will surely be a loss of radar vectoring skills.
If you need some tips on how a single runway airport should operate then Lgw is a short ride away. If you want to see 3nm separation in action then LHR is by slick. 250kt below 10, 220 on base, 180 on loc capture and 160 till 4 down the glide covers all types at LHR. If you let an RJ or ATR slow up at 15nm cos they want to then clearly you aren't going to get the best runway utilisation levels.
As pilots we plan on the worst case scenario since we cannot at this point in time do a midair refuel in an Airbus. Consequently if filed on the shorter X-ray arrival most will carry extra to account for having to do the full Lima arrival if its busy.
I understand a half way house between the two is under consideration.
On another note what's the end game? If it ain't broke why try and fix something when a radar vector will suffice. Is it all about reducing the number of controllers? A side effect will surely be a loss of radar vectoring skills.
If you need some tips on how a single runway airport should operate then Lgw is a short ride away. If you want to see 3nm separation in action then LHR is by slick. 250kt below 10, 220 on base, 180 on loc capture and 160 till 4 down the glide covers all types at LHR. If you let an RJ or ATR slow up at 15nm cos they want to then clearly you aren't going to get the best runway utilisation levels.
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Above the clouds where the sun is always shining
Age: 33
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
same for us.
I remember a video from the DAA (Dublin airport authority) that the X-ray arrivals are used for planning purposes but in the aircraft you should plan for the Lima arrival
I remember a video from the DAA (Dublin airport authority) that the X-ray arrivals are used for planning purposes but in the aircraft you should plan for the Lima arrival
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: T.C.
Age: 55
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said HD!!!!
As for the future LTMA designs and ideas, please come and see what is being planned, there is too much mis- information. Agree vectoring skills need to be retained, that is what is being planned.
Anybody who wants more information PM me.
As for the future LTMA designs and ideas, please come and see what is being planned, there is too much mis- information. Agree vectoring skills need to be retained, that is what is being planned.
Anybody who wants more information PM me.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 563
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, these are the very words coming out of the organization that telling GA air traffic to f**k off and fly elsewhere (instead of integrating them) actually improves safety. 
Then they get upset when GA accidentally enters their "sacred" airspace who are not on frequency. They blame GA for disrupting all their air traffic.
Flip the problem on its head and the message still hasn't got through to deaf ears: there is no frequency to call and no transit possible!!!
Then they get upset when GA accidentally enters their "sacred" airspace who are not on frequency. They blame GA for disrupting all their air traffic.
Flip the problem on its head and the message still hasn't got through to deaf ears: there is no frequency to call and no transit possible!!!
Last edited by soaringhigh650; 24th Nov 2013 at 09:04.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: T.C.
Age: 55
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Soaring high, how much are you willing to pay for your VFR "integrated" service??
Money talks, show any ANSP some green stuff and they may well
accommodate, up until,that time, stay away!!!
Money talks, show any ANSP some green stuff and they may well
accommodate, up until,that time, stay away!!!
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Soaringhigh...The system will never change as its conceptually different to the US.
In the US the FAA gives you a certificate. That says that you have demonstrated proficiency to a certain level depending on what is written on the bit of paper.
In Europe you are licensed. As well as ticking boxes based on proficiency the regulators can take away your licence whenever they wish to change the law.
The system will never change over here as it would involve a complete reversal of funding policies etc which ain't going to happen.
In the US the FAA gives you a certificate. That says that you have demonstrated proficiency to a certain level depending on what is written on the bit of paper.
In Europe you are licensed. As well as ticking boxes based on proficiency the regulators can take away your licence whenever they wish to change the law.
The system will never change over here as it would involve a complete reversal of funding policies etc which ain't going to happen.