French ATC
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Mauritius,soon or latter
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it is not mandatory that only "dangerous" things requires Safety report. 
If you use it, it is the only legal way to take recordings (both voice and radar ) to check it.
If it is proved that nuber 2 was number one, because it is local, that ATCo will have problem(his supervisor,examiner and quality manager as well )
If you want to test it, next time when flying in Europe ,and when number one becomes number 2 ,becuase number 2 is local and got advantage over bloody forigner
,do :
-Write safety report and send it to adequate ATS authority
- The copy of this send to my email
-After legal time frame in that country for answer, if you aren't satisfied with safety analizes and reccomendation that follows,
- We will publish all available facts at my blog,for free,
and
We will contact all relevant ATCO magazines ( i have some personal connections, couldn't not gurantee publishing story but will do best )
to publish excellent story.
Deal?
If you use it, it is the only legal way to take recordings (both voice and radar ) to check it.
If it is proved that nuber 2 was number one, because it is local, that ATCo will have problem(his supervisor,examiner and quality manager as well )
If you want to test it, next time when flying in Europe ,and when number one becomes number 2 ,becuase number 2 is local and got advantage over bloody forigner
,do :-Write safety report and send it to adequate ATS authority
- The copy of this send to my email
-After legal time frame in that country for answer, if you aren't satisfied with safety analizes and reccomendation that follows,
- We will publish all available facts at my blog,for free,
and
We will contact all relevant ATCO magazines ( i have some personal connections, couldn't not gurantee publishing story but will do best )
to publish excellent story.
Deal?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Canarias, Spain
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But you still deny that others will?
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: England
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LSM
What you state makes no sense. If you were 20 miles ahead at 80 miles you were never in any way going to delay the national carrier. It simply wouldn't have caught you. Could it have been in an emergency? Was it on the same frequency as you? It seems to me this would be the only reason to delay you like this.
What you state makes no sense. If you were 20 miles ahead at 80 miles you were never in any way going to delay the national carrier. It simply wouldn't have caught you. Could it have been in an emergency? Was it on the same frequency as you? It seems to me this would be the only reason to delay you like this.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Sandpit
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Takes me back to the good old days when BA 757 captains whinged that BA ATPs / other SF340s were allowed in first in marginal situations - sure, the 757 was faster - until 20 miles out, when it would slow to a crawl, while the ATP/SF340 would continue at 250kts+ until 5 or so DME. No contest!
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: England
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LSM
What you state makes no sense. If you were 20 miles ahead at 80 miles you were never in any way going to delay the national carrier. It simply wouldn't have caught you. Could it have been in an emergency? Was it on the same frequency as you? It seems to me this would be the only reason to delay you like this.
What you state makes no sense. If you were 20 miles ahead at 80 miles you were never in any way going to delay the national carrier. It simply wouldn't have caught you. Could it have been in an emergency? Was it on the same frequency as you? It seems to me this would be the only reason to delay you like this.
Frustrating huh?
Join Date: Mar 2013
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I haven't had any really bad experiences of this problem. Then again most of my flying is in the UK.
Had a nice situation once in the UK when operating as a hospital flight. We were inbound to the beacon to do the procedural approach when another aircraft checked in and asked for a straight in. "Negative, take up the hold at XX, you are number two for the approach, a hospital flight has priority" the reply was "are you aware that we are also a hospital flight?" and the reply came "Negative, in that case take up the hold at XX, you are just number two."
Fair is fair!
Had a nice situation once in the UK when operating as a hospital flight. We were inbound to the beacon to do the procedural approach when another aircraft checked in and asked for a straight in. "Negative, take up the hold at XX, you are number two for the approach, a hospital flight has priority" the reply was "are you aware that we are also a hospital flight?" and the reply came "Negative, in that case take up the hold at XX, you are just number two."
Fair is fair!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: schermoney and left front seat
Age: 57
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Germany give priority to their flag carrier
I´m german and fly from Germany since 1990 and I cant say I´ve witnessed that. I don´t fly for DLH and my father was an ATCO in Germany, he never talked about a DLH priority. Maybe a secret ?
Or just bollocks ?
Join Date: Aug 2010
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I think I have answered these questions/rants so often I should probably put it as part of my signature 
I will speak from my own point of view as a spanish atco but I assume the french do it exactly the same. It's one of those few times where doing it right and choosing the least amount of work is the same
As some other Atco's have pointed there is more or less an optimum way to handle traffics. Obviously there are times when 2 aircraft are in equal position to be nr 1 but this is rather infrecuent. Any other action which is not the optimum is more work for us. Any pilot stating "the atco's from X country are always giving preference to their national carriers" must be prepared to explain why atcos would be willing to take so much extra work.
One atco at the beginning of the thread stated that special treats from a specific airline (which does not have to be the national one) was the tipping point when deciding to be nr 1... not my criterium but it would only account for those few times when 2 aircraft can be the first with equal amount of work.
We are not always perfect. Just the other day I allowed a slow aircraft to depart while a B737 was making push. I thought it would have cleared a certain altitude by the time the other one reached the holding point but I was mistaken. The B737 had to wait for 5 minutes due to that and I had a lot more work due to coordinations. Was I favoring a national carrier? Nope, just screwing things up but without any bias.
On the other side I tend to consider these statements of pilots about giving priority with the same degree of confidence of football fans questioning a referee's decission. It's always the other team the referees are helping.
It's you pilots (sure, not all of you but since we were making such sweeping remarks...) who are obsessed with being nr 1 and who would cheat each other for it without hessitation. I couldn't count how many times I've had pilots saying they are fully ready for push... while the towtruck was not attached and some stairs still on... I couldn't honestly care less which one is nr 1. Usually it will be a medium before a heavy or whichever SID causes the least havoc when compared to the one before and after... and that's it, I simply have no time checking for the carrier before assigning startup order.
Hmmmm.... perhaps a bit too long for a signature
I will speak from my own point of view as a spanish atco but I assume the french do it exactly the same. It's one of those few times where doing it right and choosing the least amount of work is the same
As some other Atco's have pointed there is more or less an optimum way to handle traffics. Obviously there are times when 2 aircraft are in equal position to be nr 1 but this is rather infrecuent. Any other action which is not the optimum is more work for us. Any pilot stating "the atco's from X country are always giving preference to their national carriers" must be prepared to explain why atcos would be willing to take so much extra work.
One atco at the beginning of the thread stated that special treats from a specific airline (which does not have to be the national one) was the tipping point when deciding to be nr 1... not my criterium but it would only account for those few times when 2 aircraft can be the first with equal amount of work.
We are not always perfect. Just the other day I allowed a slow aircraft to depart while a B737 was making push. I thought it would have cleared a certain altitude by the time the other one reached the holding point but I was mistaken. The B737 had to wait for 5 minutes due to that and I had a lot more work due to coordinations. Was I favoring a national carrier? Nope, just screwing things up but without any bias.
On the other side I tend to consider these statements of pilots about giving priority with the same degree of confidence of football fans questioning a referee's decission. It's always the other team the referees are helping.
It's you pilots (sure, not all of you but since we were making such sweeping remarks...) who are obsessed with being nr 1 and who would cheat each other for it without hessitation. I couldn't count how many times I've had pilots saying they are fully ready for push... while the towtruck was not attached and some stairs still on...
I couldn't honestly care less which one is nr 1. Usually it will be a medium before a heavy or whichever SID causes the least havoc when compared to the one before and after... and that's it, I simply have no time checking for the carrier before assigning startup order.Hmmmm.... perhaps a bit too long for a signature
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: etha
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Getting a prop to overtake a jet at around 80nm to go? Even a Dash-8 Q400 would struggle with that, even if you were doing what you said.
I routinely stick a jet behind a prop (turbo ones) as over 80nms (ironically the length of one of my streaming sectors) if the turboprop starts just 15nm ahead, then the jet is very unlikely to get 10nm in front as I need for the next sector. Solution, descend the jet at 250kts, rarely with a vector to add 5nm to the routing, and the next sector get the traffic as they desire, with the prop as no 1. As long as the prop plays game and keeps the speed up then little or no holding will even be required. The jet delay? About an extra 3 to 4 minutes flying a much more economical speed.
I am paid to know all that (and have it embedded as second nature), which is why one day I will give you the best direct with "high speed" and the next nudge you left a little, descend you a little earlier and pull the speed back. I've met many controllers from various countries and disciplines and all of them joke about prioritising as we all know it's just rubbish talk.
I routinely stick a jet behind a prop (turbo ones) as over 80nms (ironically the length of one of my streaming sectors) if the turboprop starts just 15nm ahead, then the jet is very unlikely to get 10nm in front as I need for the next sector. Solution, descend the jet at 250kts, rarely with a vector to add 5nm to the routing, and the next sector get the traffic as they desire, with the prop as no 1. As long as the prop plays game and keeps the speed up then little or no holding will even be required. The jet delay? About an extra 3 to 4 minutes flying a much more economical speed.
I am paid to know all that (and have it embedded as second nature), which is why one day I will give you the best direct with "high speed" and the next nudge you left a little, descend you a little earlier and pull the speed back. I've met many controllers from various countries and disciplines and all of them joke about prioritising as we all know it's just rubbish talk.
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Frustrating huh?
Are you paid to know that a high speed descent at flight idle is more efficient than a low speed descent at flight idle?
Why do you presume that slowing us down is more efficient?
Join Date: Mar 2001
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I'm still far from convinced that the prop would have "overtaken" you, even at 180kts with 40 to go. I would say that the prop was already ahead and the controller wasn't going to bust a gut to get you in front.
I know that there are many many variables that determine "economical" however 250kts in the majority of cases is more economic than flying 320kts+ trying to nudge in front (which is what would be required). There are also many more variables that you probably aren't even aware of in the cockpit which makes the controller choose their way of control regarding airspace orientation, danger areas or just other traffic.
Nothing is ever as simple as what it may seem.
I know that there are many many variables that determine "economical" however 250kts in the majority of cases is more economic than flying 320kts+ trying to nudge in front (which is what would be required). There are also many more variables that you probably aren't even aware of in the cockpit which makes the controller choose their way of control regarding airspace orientation, danger areas or just other traffic.
Nothing is ever as simple as what it may seem.
Join Date: Sep 2010
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I wouldn't expect him to bust a gut to get me in front if I was behind. However, he was perfectly happy to do so for his national airline.
It happened, whether you're convinced or not, and it isn't a solitary occurrence.
It happened, whether you're convinced or not, and it isn't a solitary occurrence.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Sonnendec, is the Nostrum flight a regular flight? Just Flight Radar whenever it is scheduled and see how many jets are "inconvenienced" each time by the props presence......
Join Date: Feb 2004
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No thanks, I'd like to keep my anonymity.
It was, however, more than thirty days ago.
It was, however, more than thirty days ago.
. You are always asking for explanations but refuse to get one, so i´ll just think is a matter of prejudice not based on any real fact.Best regards.
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Sonnendec, I haven't asked for anything fella. Funny you should ask the question if you knew what the answer would be and you're entitled to your opinion of course.
What is it that I'm prejudiced against?
What is it that I'm prejudiced against?
