Civvy formation T/O and landing
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Civvy formation T/O and landing
Really quick question.
Can your normal every day airfield tower clear a civilian formation for landing and take-off? Are there any requirements for this (on both ATC and aircraft side?). Obviously works okay for the likely of the Reds who don't exactly match the profile, but I was passed traffic info about 2 Cessnas in formation taking off from Biggin a while ago and I was sure I heard "Callsign formation cleared to land runway xx" before I changed freqs. I was under the impression this was not allowed.
I may be mistaken of course!
Can your normal every day airfield tower clear a civilian formation for landing and take-off? Are there any requirements for this (on both ATC and aircraft side?). Obviously works okay for the likely of the Reds who don't exactly match the profile, but I was passed traffic info about 2 Cessnas in formation taking off from Biggin a while ago and I was sure I heard "Callsign formation cleared to land runway xx" before I changed freqs. I was under the impression this was not allowed.
I may be mistaken of course!
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Yes they (we) are allowed to, hence why you heard it. We tend not to broadcast things we are not allowed to do, to then read about it on PPRuNe!
May be different at Airfields where FISO and AGCS are used but for airfields with ATC, yes.
From an ATC point of view, makes no difference if its the red arrows or a couple of chaps from the Flying Club having a mess about. I could refer you to the relevant rule numbers of the ANO which pilots are to adhere to but I'm sure you can find them yourself.
PS. I refer to ATC in the UK. I don't know what the situation is elsewhere!
May be different at Airfields where FISO and AGCS are used but for airfields with ATC, yes.
From an ATC point of view, makes no difference if its the red arrows or a couple of chaps from the Flying Club having a mess about. I could refer you to the relevant rule numbers of the ANO which pilots are to adhere to but I'm sure you can find them yourself.
PS. I refer to ATC in the UK. I don't know what the situation is elsewhere!
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Thank you both. Perhaps not such a simple question then!
I am aware (and having checked with the reference) that landing could technically be done AS a formation with a land after clearance which leaves it up to the pilot following to separate, unless of course MATSp2 or other dictates a minimum for controllers to issue such clearance. It does not however tie in with explicitly clearing a formation (as a formation) to land.
The reference for take off would deem it to be not allowed, however I believe that aircraft in formation are considered to be 1 unit for the purposes of seperation as long as they remain within a limit (I can't remember it now... same level and 3 miles is it? seems large). I do not know if this applies on the ground for take off and landing purposes also.
It is interested that you both give different answers - hopefully more can contribute.
I am aware (and having checked with the reference) that landing could technically be done AS a formation with a land after clearance which leaves it up to the pilot following to separate, unless of course MATSp2 or other dictates a minimum for controllers to issue such clearance. It does not however tie in with explicitly clearing a formation (as a formation) to land.
The reference for take off would deem it to be not allowed, however I believe that aircraft in formation are considered to be 1 unit for the purposes of seperation as long as they remain within a limit (I can't remember it now... same level and 3 miles is it? seems large). I do not know if this applies on the ground for take off and landing purposes also.
It is interested that you both give different answers - hopefully more can contribute.
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A formation (or combine) can be considered as such if at the same level and with 1 mile of each other see MATS 1 section 1 4.66.
Landing and take off clearance can be given to the lead aircraft for the whole formation.
Landing and take off clearance can be given to the lead aircraft for the whole formation.
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Have you ever controlled the Red Arrows? When there's 10 of them? Lots of R/T or you control them as one. To take off they are all together( within one mile and at the same level) and on arrival the same.
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I,m pretty certain i remember reading a CAP (please dont ask which one) that so long as both/all pilots have agreed on the ground before hand and that DATCO accepts them, then an Ad-hoc formation can depart and operate at will. Happens where I work fairly often.
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