Radar ATCO's paid less than TWR ATCO's?
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By all means, I am not saying it is fair or right. but as Plazbot says, by the end of your career it all works itself out. Maybe 2 years from now the APP guys are better staffed than the TWR guys, it all goes in circles.
But I will disagree with you in saying that by nature APP is more complex than TWR, and ACC more complex than APP. It all depends on the unit, the airspace, local rules and regulations and staffing. If the TWR is complex, you open ground, delivery, 2nd ground, planner. If APP is complex, you open Departures, Arrivals/director, Coordinator, planner and so on. If ACC is complex you open more sectors, 2 controllers in each sector, planner and so on. At the end of the day, a single controller or sector can only handle so much traffic, and you adjust accordingly.
Having held all three ratings, I would say busy approach procedural is for me the most complicated one, but what does it matter?
Enough drift from the original topic, no it is not fair that some people work more hours/shifts than other people at the same contract.
But I will disagree with you in saying that by nature APP is more complex than TWR, and ACC more complex than APP. It all depends on the unit, the airspace, local rules and regulations and staffing. If the TWR is complex, you open ground, delivery, 2nd ground, planner. If APP is complex, you open Departures, Arrivals/director, Coordinator, planner and so on. If ACC is complex you open more sectors, 2 controllers in each sector, planner and so on. At the end of the day, a single controller or sector can only handle so much traffic, and you adjust accordingly.
Having held all three ratings, I would say busy approach procedural is for me the most complicated one, but what does it matter?
Enough drift from the original topic, no it is not fair that some people work more hours/shifts than other people at the same contract.
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Read this post and thought in the interests of fairness a few things should be highlighted.1) The title is misleading, both Tower and Approach are paid the same wages, although currently the two are on differing shift patterns.2) The timing of the post is interesting. Historically shifts have always changed in Tower at this time of year due to the annual religious holiday and the large number of staff that request time off due to this. The Tower controllers have actually been working the same hours for the last month and a half. Interestingly though no complaint was made from approach during August when the Tower guys ended up working morning night shifts on the same day. Now that this has changed apparently its a big deal.3) In terms of rostering approach end up with a better pattern overall. They at least have some form of watch system and know that their shift pattern remains fairly constant. Tower do not have this luxury and it is not uncommon for them to be called in on their days off to cover shifts. When a shift pattern only allows for 1 sleep day and 1 day off at the end of a cycle you can appreciate that the situation isn't ideal. Therefore whilst on paper they work less the reality is that some **** cycles can turn into 8+ days on shift without a day off.4) It is unfair to suggest that the approach controllers are busier. The fact remains that it is a very busy international airport with complex traffic patterns and a wide variety of users. Both tower and approach have their intricacies and work hard at what they do. The current situation probably isn't ideal for either side of operations but steps are being taken to increase staff numbers and when that happens hopefully everyone will be happy. Until then it really doesn't help to bicker and it is better that people remember that whether you are approach or tower you are, at the end of a day, a team who should support each other.
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Is it the case that the tower atcos are doing more, shorter shifts per month? Consequently getting fewer days off. Is it also the case that the tower roster is less predictable and that tower atcos are not able to plan their time off until they actually receive the revised roster on the third(ish) of the month?
With these things in mind, is the tower atco really doing any better? If the rosters were swapped would you still be complaining about the drawbacks?
As others have said - it all balances out!
With these things in mind, is the tower atco really doing any better? If the rosters were swapped would you still be complaining about the drawbacks?
As others have said - it all balances out!
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<<Approach by its very nature, is more complex>>
Now there's a man who needs to sit on GMC for a couple or hours at a busy airport in fog!
Now there's a man who needs to sit on GMC for a couple or hours at a busy airport in fog!
Last edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR; 19th Sep 2013 at 09:54.
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Goddammit and LHR Director
To a certain degree Goddammit those elements are true , however doesnt the same roster have standby days which if not called in equate to MORE time off?!! approach roster can be varied with little notice.......and the fact remains approach ARE working btwn 25-30 hrs extra per month!!
LHR Director.......... Said Man HAS worked LHR GMC in LVPS......and I can assure you, this is far more complex!!!! But point taken thanks
LHR Director.......... Said Man HAS worked LHR GMC in LVPS......and I can assure you, this is far more complex!!!! But point taken thanks
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Now there's a man who needs to sit on GMC for a couple or hours at a busy airport in fog!
Last edited by Warped Factor; 19th Sep 2013 at 20:46.
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<<LHR Director.......... Said Man HAS worked LHR GMC in LVPS......and I can assure you, this is far more complex!!!!>>
OK. I've worked procedural aproach and area and approach radar. I've also worked Heathrow GMC in the days before labels and the other gadgets. Anyway, let's not argue. It's just my personal opinion which isn't worth much!
OK. I've worked procedural aproach and area and approach radar. I've also worked Heathrow GMC in the days before labels and the other gadgets. Anyway, let's not argue. It's just my personal opinion which isn't worth much!
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Standby days - I believe these leave the individual liable for a short notice phone call to cover any of the four shifts on that day. I wouldn't even know when to plan to sleep in those circumstances, so doesn't sound like a day off.
Last edited by goddammit; 20th Sep 2013 at 08:05.
Stand by days are not days off and should never be viewed as such.
I have always approached them as firstly a morning on minimal sleep, get up at normal morning shift time, do stuff then back to bed late morning or mid day and sleep as long as possible. Works well for all shifts.
I have always approached them as firstly a morning on minimal sleep, get up at normal morning shift time, do stuff then back to bed late morning or mid day and sleep as long as possible. Works well for all shifts.
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Jh86
Thanks for the input........, however may I just confirm that the title is in fact technically correct....... tower are working less hours for the same pay and conditions, so by reasonable deduction 1 can only deduce that towers hourly rate is FAR better than approaches ....ergo Twr are paid more than Radar!!! It is not only, A combination of being on a slightly stretched variation of our MANSO roster ( more time to recover btwn shifts!!) but also that the shifts are 2 hrs shorter!! ( more time off!!) far better working conditions in my opinion!! As for the 8+ shifts in a row.........?? That is an extreme example and wouldn't happen if your phone was switched off!!
I agree that we are a team and should be supporting each other........however Wasn't it the case when approach were working the SAME 8 hr shifts and tower were working the SAME 6 hour shifts.......IE radar working more than tower ....ooh EXACTLY what's happening now??!!! Didn't same tower ATCO's jump up and down and moan that Approach were getting more than Tower ?(even though we were working more hours as we are now....! and justified the extra payment.....! ) and end up not only getting the extra payment for working the lesser hours but actually had it backdated!!! Hmmmm not sure ....but am I not justified slightly in feeling a bit seen off?!!! And that fact in mind.......are we not treated independently ( separate roster, different working conditions, less pay for more hours worked)and are in fact two different UNITS/TEAMS?!!!
Thanks for the input........, however may I just confirm that the title is in fact technically correct....... tower are working less hours for the same pay and conditions, so by reasonable deduction 1 can only deduce that towers hourly rate is FAR better than approaches ....ergo Twr are paid more than Radar!!! It is not only, A combination of being on a slightly stretched variation of our MANSO roster ( more time to recover btwn shifts!!) but also that the shifts are 2 hrs shorter!! ( more time off!!) far better working conditions in my opinion!! As for the 8+ shifts in a row.........?? That is an extreme example and wouldn't happen if your phone was switched off!!
I agree that we are a team and should be supporting each other........however Wasn't it the case when approach were working the SAME 8 hr shifts and tower were working the SAME 6 hour shifts.......IE radar working more than tower ....ooh EXACTLY what's happening now??!!! Didn't same tower ATCO's jump up and down and moan that Approach were getting more than Tower ?(even though we were working more hours as we are now....! and justified the extra payment.....! ) and end up not only getting the extra payment for working the lesser hours but actually had it backdated!!! Hmmmm not sure ....but am I not justified slightly in feeling a bit seen off?!!! And that fact in mind.......are we not treated independently ( separate roster, different working conditions, less pay for more hours worked)and are in fact two different UNITS/TEAMS?!!!
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Robor66
It seems that you've been unhappy at your present unit for at least two years and that this minor difference in pay is just another symptom of your disaffection. Have you actually calculated how many rials an hour/day that you feel you are missing?
I'm no expert but I see two possible routes to salvation, either find a new job or "suck it up princess".
It seems that you've been unhappy at your present unit for at least two years and that this minor difference in pay is just another symptom of your disaffection. Have you actually calculated how many rials an hour/day that you feel you are missing?
I'm no expert but I see two possible routes to salvation, either find a new job or "suck it up princess".
