No descent below 4000 outside 13nm LHR
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No descent below 4000 outside 13nm LHR
Today, I received a light ticking off from the best controllers in the world.
Having been cleared to intercept the LOC (only) for 27R. I asked for further descent as the glide slope approached ..... This was denied.
There then followed a melee of crossed transmissions as I attempted to say LOC established in order to get clearance to descend with the glide.... As we sailed through the g/s....
I was told that there is no descent below 4000 outside 13nm.....
You guys are not normally like this.... Has anything changed ....?
Or was this a one off ?
Cheers
S.D
Having been cleared to intercept the LOC (only) for 27R. I asked for further descent as the glide slope approached ..... This was denied.
There then followed a melee of crossed transmissions as I attempted to say LOC established in order to get clearance to descend with the glide.... As we sailed through the g/s....
I was told that there is no descent below 4000 outside 13nm.....
You guys are not normally like this.... Has anything changed ....?
Or was this a one off ?
Cheers
S.D
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The point I was trying to make (badly obviously) was - can we make sure that we intercept the loc before the glide (better vectors) or at least be told - 'when established loc descend with the glide'
Then there's no flying through the glide slope followed by the chase to catch it up whilst slowing to your 160kts to 4 request
Thanks
SD
Then there's no flying through the glide slope followed by the chase to catch it up whilst slowing to your 160kts to 4 request
Thanks
SD
I think this should be applied everywhere. Why should aeroplanes be flying low when there is no absolute need to do so. Hope the new CAA's SARG enforce this and abolish all CAS below 3,500' @13 miles from touchdown. If heathrow can do it, why not everywhere?
Just my opinion
bb
Just my opinion
bb
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Originally Posted by Sean Dell
can we make sure that we intercept the loc before the glide
The expectation to capture from above is poor ATC and I cannot believe that was the intention. Methinks you encountered the GS at a non-GS intercept altitude and asked to follow the glide before ATC could accommodate a GS descent. The procedures are constrained on westerlies when London City airport is active.
Hi Sean. It's always been not below 4000' till 13dme on 27.
Sometimes if there is nothing about (city departure) we might cheat and drop you to 3000 early particularly if you're still descending and present rate makes it unlikely you will get below 4000 till 13 dme. This is a little corner that is cut to manage the RT more effectively but is not strictly by the book.
A big disadvantage to using that technique is you guys start to expect it and then start asking for lower thereby blocking the RT at a critical time. (sounds like that's what happened to you?)
Next time you're in that position it would be nice to take you downwind an extra mile to make sure you hit the LOC outside 13dme but you'll be going round and round at LAM even more than you do now if that becomes the norm. Likewise, I'm sure the controller in question wanted to descend you at 13dme but at that exact time he/she had a higher priority call eg. a turn or speed reduction to ensure the landing rate.
Unfortunately LL is at such a high capacity and so constained by airspace that sometimes you and I have to work at lot harder than we'd both like in order to keep your airline and my bosses happy.
Out of interest, what do you fly and what do you consider to be the optimum length final into Heathrow?
Also, if you are in that position again would a descent to 2000/2500 then further with the glide enable you to capture from below or is it better (though not ideal) to capture from above?
I'd like to think that my colleagues would recognise you were high on the glide at any stage of approach and expect a subsequent speed reduction to take longer than usual.
Sometimes if there is nothing about (city departure) we might cheat and drop you to 3000 early particularly if you're still descending and present rate makes it unlikely you will get below 4000 till 13 dme. This is a little corner that is cut to manage the RT more effectively but is not strictly by the book.
A big disadvantage to using that technique is you guys start to expect it and then start asking for lower thereby blocking the RT at a critical time. (sounds like that's what happened to you?)
Next time you're in that position it would be nice to take you downwind an extra mile to make sure you hit the LOC outside 13dme but you'll be going round and round at LAM even more than you do now if that becomes the norm. Likewise, I'm sure the controller in question wanted to descend you at 13dme but at that exact time he/she had a higher priority call eg. a turn or speed reduction to ensure the landing rate.
Unfortunately LL is at such a high capacity and so constained by airspace that sometimes you and I have to work at lot harder than we'd both like in order to keep your airline and my bosses happy.
Out of interest, what do you fly and what do you consider to be the optimum length final into Heathrow?
Also, if you are in that position again would a descent to 2000/2500 then further with the glide enable you to capture from below or is it better (though not ideal) to capture from above?
I'd like to think that my colleagues would recognise you were high on the glide at any stage of approach and expect a subsequent speed reduction to take longer than usual.
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Unfortunately we just met the glide slightly ahead of the loc. I tried to pre-empt this by asking for further descent having been given the 'call localiser established' - so no permission to descend with the glide (like lots of controllers do) - couldn't get a word in ....
Just was a bit messy.
I accept that there is LCY to consider. However if vectors are tight as yesterday's was, then 'call localiser established' is going to end in tears ...As we fight to get that call in ....whilst the glide comes and goes...
Don't mind what final we get really as long as we are generally below the glide as we capture the loc. Capturing the glide from above is taught, but finger trouble can catch out the unprepared and the 319 slows up like a crisp packet in a breeze.....
Dont get me wrong - you guys are great (particuarly Marmite!) - just was a little surprised yesterday. ( to be fair, it might have been controller training)
Cheers
SD
Just was a bit messy.
I accept that there is LCY to consider. However if vectors are tight as yesterday's was, then 'call localiser established' is going to end in tears ...As we fight to get that call in ....whilst the glide comes and goes...
Don't mind what final we get really as long as we are generally below the glide as we capture the loc. Capturing the glide from above is taught, but finger trouble can catch out the unprepared and the 319 slows up like a crisp packet in a breeze.....
Dont get me wrong - you guys are great (particuarly Marmite!) - just was a little surprised yesterday. ( to be fair, it might have been controller training)
Cheers
SD
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Was it on 120.4? I worked that frequency, among others, for over 30 years and never found it so busy that calls could not be made. Maybe it was a U/T controller who had not got used to timing his calls tactically.
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Why should aeroplanes be flying low when there is no absolute need to do so. Hope the new CAA's SARG enforce this and abolish all CAS below 3,500' @13 miles from touchdown.
bad bear, you really have no idea what you are talking about.
Maybe time to leave your flight simulator and do some real flying.
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Talkdownman, you seemed to take that as an insult with your tit for tat reply
It wasn't intended as that ... Just based on the fact that one ATC accent changed to another during the middle of this exchange.
Also, yes I am aware that the gear can help slow the a/c up ...and will use it to help capture the glide from above
It's just not an ideal and efficient way of operating
Btw, I have had a cordial exchange of personal messages with one of the controllers, who is frankly a credit to his profession. I'm happy to leave things at that. I've learned a lesson, I have a new briefing scenario to include in my LHR brief ....
Thanks
SD
It wasn't intended as that ... Just based on the fact that one ATC accent changed to another during the middle of this exchange.
Also, yes I am aware that the gear can help slow the a/c up ...and will use it to help capture the glide from above
It's just not an ideal and efficient way of operating
Btw, I have had a cordial exchange of personal messages with one of the controllers, who is frankly a credit to his profession. I'm happy to leave things at that. I've learned a lesson, I have a new briefing scenario to include in my LHR brief ....
Thanks
SD
Last edited by Sean Dell; 15th Aug 2013 at 07:36.
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Sean Dell
Hi Sean, ask to see the replay; radar and R/T and telephone calls are all recorded and easy to get. I applaud your post....by sharing these things we all learn. No-one will take offence and you might appreciate seeing the big picture...and the best ATC systems benefit from healthy pilot [customer] input. Phone today to get it all set up, and it can be reserved for a convenient time.
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No offence 055166K but oh how I DO hate the term "customer". It's management yukspeak which came in before I retired. I was an ATCO, not a bl**dy shop assistant!
PS Sean, I'm sure that Talkdownman meant no offence. Like me, he is ex-Heathrow but also still wearing an electric hate. He is a very able pilot too (I'm good at driving Reliant Robins).
PS Sean, I'm sure that Talkdownman meant no offence. Like me, he is ex-Heathrow but also still wearing an electric hate. He is a very able pilot too (I'm good at driving Reliant Robins).
Last edited by HEATHROW DIRECTOR; 15th Aug 2013 at 15:25.
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HD
Respects to you......I curled up with laughter when I read the "typo", or was it a Freudian slip? Seriously though, there will always be a difference of interpretation of the ATC role between those who controlled twenty years ago and those who controlled twenty minutes ago. Nowadays the job is heavily focused on user requirements [managed to avoid the offensive c-word] in recognition of the huge costs involved in modern aviation and the more exacting standards needed to operate in a near saturated traffic environment.
Keep up the good work.....I'm a fan! rgds.
Keep up the good work.....I'm a fan! rgds.
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Great post Sean Dell, I wish discussions between pilots and controllers happened more often so that you could understand why we do things the way we do and we could understand how you prefer things.
And HD, regardless of what you are doing in this planet, there is always a costumer so we are providing a service... like policemen, doctor, nurses, teachers...
And HD, regardless of what you are doing in this planet, there is always a costumer so we are providing a service... like policemen, doctor, nurses, teachers...
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windneckin,
'customers' usually have a choice. If I go into a shop, or a restaurant and get rubbish service or a cr*p deal, the next time I require a similar good, or service, I will look elsewhere.
Pilots DO NOT have this option. If they get a cr*p service on Daventry on Monday, the same service provider will be there on Tuesday and Wednesday.
Pilot-controller forums were common years ago. Events which are worth re-instating. Speak to your unit GM or GATCO rep.
'customers' usually have a choice. If I go into a shop, or a restaurant and get rubbish service or a cr*p deal, the next time I require a similar good, or service, I will look elsewhere.
Pilots DO NOT have this option. If they get a cr*p service on Daventry on Monday, the same service provider will be there on Tuesday and Wednesday.
Pilot-controller forums were common years ago. Events which are worth re-instating. Speak to your unit GM or GATCO rep.
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Oooops 'customer'... sorry gents.
There seems to be less and less of those pilots-controllers forums... if at all :-(
If the customer gets a bad service regularly you would like to think that it would be picked up by established procedures so that it doesn't happen again... but that might be a bit of wishful thinking in this day and age.
There seems to be less and less of those pilots-controllers forums... if at all :-(
If the customer gets a bad service regularly you would like to think that it would be picked up by established procedures so that it doesn't happen again... but that might be a bit of wishful thinking in this day and age.
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Hi Sean Dell,
It might have been me... I was training that Tuesday in a morning shift and remember saying "negative" to a further descend requested by a British pilot. As trainees we have to show that we know the rules and due to the close proximity of LC departures (specially to 27R), descent to 3A can't be instructed until 13nm or closer from touchdown.
It might have been me... I was training that Tuesday in a morning shift and remember saying "negative" to a further descend requested by a British pilot. As trainees we have to show that we know the rules and due to the close proximity of LC departures (specially to 27R), descent to 3A can't be instructed until 13nm or closer from touchdown.