Spanish ATC? WHY?
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shift planning with one month in advance and it can be changed more or less at will by Aena.
) with the same issue. Our Labour law clearly states ...."that 24/7 operational workers must be informed one month in advance about shifts,and any changes must be approved by worker itself....."
our managers , belive and acts as " I am representing Good on ATC matters so laws aren't applicable ! "
so we have to fight for our rights.
Fight is easy, we just required from amnagers to show us paper that allow them to break laws .
If they try to make pressure, than another question " are you trying to affect union leaders opinion,illegally?
As you could presume ,it is easier for them to follow rules rather than explain to public prosecutor why they mobing union leaders.
Our law heriatge is not different than any other modern European law system (at least continental Europe) . So I do belive that the same action is applicable anywhere in Europe, Spain including.
it is just a question , will you union leaders stay behind their people or behind managers? In latter option it is again question for public prosecutor ,this time it is called corruption and reffers to different laws.
Anyhow, my deep proffesional opinon differs from union point of view.
Braeking laws are clear sign of bad safety culture, and major safety related misaps are inevitable. This is direct responsibility of managers ( so called direct command rensposibility ) and as manager I will fired all managers immediattelly if any of them break positive law regulation. It is non dicipline question and these fired managers will show others way in case of non discipline.
After that people will work as it should be, and system will protect itself.
But this last part belong to my private company rather than state ANSP at Southern Europe.
market condition protects active safety system .
Will brits arrive in millions at Benindorm ,regardless, ATC related safety?
Will Germans still occupy Baleares,after Condor was waiting for Iberia?
Who from Norway will sell his house because of flight plan route insted of direct routing ?
since all of you know answers it is again clear as sunny day.
sun and sea sells tickets,not ATC
P.S. 15 shifts (12 hours each/half of them single person operation ) one day sick leave and one day of holiday leave, and still counting this month.
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@BOAC: I think it would be a fair bet to assume you are twice my age or thereabouts. I will obviously not go into what was done in spanish atc while I was in school due to lack of personal experience. In any case, let's assume you are right in this point (just for the sake of argument. A few anecdotical evidences does not mount up to sufficient proof, not even statistically) and spanish ATC did favor Iberia a decade ago. This would be the base for the perception bias I mentioned in my previous post.
However since 2010 we were demonized by the whole of spanish society starting precisely with pilots who blamed on ATC every delay they had incurred themselves. And since it struck a willing ear on their passengers as it also confirmed their previous idea (insistently hammered on the media by the government), nobody believed otherwise.
As I explained before I don't think that nowaday any of us (save a few statistically irrelevant ones, mostly close to retirement) would favor national companies... specially since they are now brittish anyway
If you think otherwise the burden of proof lies with you to provide a valid explanation on why any of us would take that extra work.
@Out of the Gap: Senasa is no more the only english certification agency in Spain and we can use other european ones as well... in fact I (and a lot of atcos I know) have our rating from Belgium based The English exam that lets you fly (got a very good impression of them)
@Singapurcanac: Well, that is an interesting point... we have here two norms working. The lower ranking labor "agreement" states that Aena does have to give us our planning with 30 days in advance... and to be fair, Aena keeps their end of the bargain here... to a certain extent.
Law 9/2010 http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/04/1...-2010-5983.pdf (spanish only, sorry) states that the ANSP provider must ensure the continuity of service without any reduction and as it is a Law it ranks in Spain above all Labor Agreements including the Worker's Statute... therefore Aena uses this as a cudgel stating that since they must comply with the law we do not have any rights other that those specifically stated there (and a lower ranking normative mentioned in it about resting periods for atcs) and they have thus no restriction for altering their planification even with one day notice.
In fact Aena has made several shift plannings fully knowing that some of the staff there would not be available (long-term sickness, maternity,..) and then "correcting" that with a few days notice with mandatory services.
However since 2010 we were demonized by the whole of spanish society starting precisely with pilots who blamed on ATC every delay they had incurred themselves. And since it struck a willing ear on their passengers as it also confirmed their previous idea (insistently hammered on the media by the government), nobody believed otherwise.
As I explained before I don't think that nowaday any of us (save a few statistically irrelevant ones, mostly close to retirement) would favor national companies... specially since they are now brittish anyway
If you think otherwise the burden of proof lies with you to provide a valid explanation on why any of us would take that extra work.
@Out of the Gap: Senasa is no more the only english certification agency in Spain and we can use other european ones as well... in fact I (and a lot of atcos I know) have our rating from Belgium based The English exam that lets you fly (got a very good impression of them)
@Singapurcanac: Well, that is an interesting point... we have here two norms working. The lower ranking labor "agreement" states that Aena does have to give us our planning with 30 days in advance... and to be fair, Aena keeps their end of the bargain here... to a certain extent.
Law 9/2010 http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/04/1...-2010-5983.pdf (spanish only, sorry) states that the ANSP provider must ensure the continuity of service without any reduction and as it is a Law it ranks in Spain above all Labor Agreements including the Worker's Statute... therefore Aena uses this as a cudgel stating that since they must comply with the law we do not have any rights other that those specifically stated there (and a lower ranking normative mentioned in it about resting periods for atcs) and they have thus no restriction for altering their planification even with one day notice.
In fact Aena has made several shift plannings fully knowing that some of the staff there would not be available (long-term sickness, maternity,..) and then "correcting" that with a few days notice with mandatory services.
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Daermon - thanks for the reply - you will see that I 'finished' doing it in 2008 so what has happened since I know not, but I assumed from the opening post it was still 'prevalent'.
Good luck with your battle.
Good luck with your battle.
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Thank you, atcstudent! A combination of my schoolboy Spanish and Google Translate helped me to make sense of the situation. Talk about scapegoating - there are times* when I thing politicians ought to be the object of lots of physical harm.
I think the fact that I couldn't find anything as detailed as those links in English speakes volumes as to what our media thinks is "interesting" ...
*(every day with a "d" in it)
I think the fact that I couldn't find anything as detailed as those links in English speakes volumes as to what our media thinks is "interesting" ...
*(every day with a "d" in it)
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@ Daermon,
thanks for explanation.
in taht case I may only reccomend so called "german approach " .
Find a very reputable persons , or at least one but trully excellent, put him/her onto Union board,and try to get understanding and trust from management.
Than in second phase try to establish Safety system ,better than current,
and
than in third phase put safety reccomendation " schedule one month ahead and non changeable without prior agreement "
it will have lower level than Law, but actually will be considered as higher priority because it is part of Safety system and no one will compromise safety on paper,at least.
If your Union become part of management process,in positive way to be precise, you may change things. It is the lattest solution on labour market, currently you may find such deals in Germany and it seems that works .
and yes I know it is long way journey, and " it is easier said than done", but only applicable solution.
thanks for explanation.
in taht case I may only reccomend so called "german approach " .
Find a very reputable persons , or at least one but trully excellent, put him/her onto Union board,and try to get understanding and trust from management.
Than in second phase try to establish Safety system ,better than current,
and
than in third phase put safety reccomendation " schedule one month ahead and non changeable without prior agreement "
it will have lower level than Law, but actually will be considered as higher priority because it is part of Safety system and no one will compromise safety on paper,at least.
If your Union become part of management process,in positive way to be precise, you may change things. It is the lattest solution on labour market, currently you may find such deals in Germany and it seems that works .
and yes I know it is long way journey, and " it is easier said than done", but only applicable solution.
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I work in Scandinavia.
When I worked APP, most of the time I ALWAYS let the "North european" carriers go first; but that was solely because I knew how the operated and what to expect...
Tossing out "Left by 10, and keep speed 280 or greater" to a charter-carrier could give any kind of result just due to the "language barrier" and that they were (are?) used to different ways of doing things... So to keep things simple and avoid unpleasant experiences they came last in the queue, and where a misunderstanding wouldn't yield too much of an inconvenience.
Maybe its transferable to "Spain today?". National carriers and ATC "speak the same language" and know what to expect from each other?
When I worked APP, most of the time I ALWAYS let the "North european" carriers go first; but that was solely because I knew how the operated and what to expect...
Tossing out "Left by 10, and keep speed 280 or greater" to a charter-carrier could give any kind of result just due to the "language barrier" and that they were (are?) used to different ways of doing things... So to keep things simple and avoid unpleasant experiences they came last in the queue, and where a misunderstanding wouldn't yield too much of an inconvenience.
Maybe its transferable to "Spain today?". National carriers and ATC "speak the same language" and know what to expect from each other?
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It works in Europe where one have quite a lot of money for these things; but not in Spain where we (the rest of the world) has set down a limit on their spending. They are obliged to "cut everywhere" and so they do - also in "public transport".
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I couldn't agree more with Dan's opening post of this thread.
Even if the Spanish controllers have an axe to grind over industrial issues, I can't see how being so obstinate ,petulant and unprofessional should in any way help their cause with their employers.
Its just costing my employer and all the other airlines who have to fly in Spanish airspace, a lot of extra money in fuel. Why would the Spanish authorities give a damn about that ?!
Oh, and another thing .... - Maybe if the Spanish hadn't blown it big time and squandered the Billions they've received from the member states of the EU, who's airines the Spanish controllers are now targeting, then there wouldn't be a need to have their terms and conditions altered in the first place.
How about maybe trying to find a scape goat issue to deflect attention away from the sorry state the Spainish state is now in - like, say Gibraltar for example ! Oh yeah, already been done......
Even if the Spanish controllers have an axe to grind over industrial issues, I can't see how being so obstinate ,petulant and unprofessional should in any way help their cause with their employers.
Its just costing my employer and all the other airlines who have to fly in Spanish airspace, a lot of extra money in fuel. Why would the Spanish authorities give a damn about that ?!
Oh, and another thing .... - Maybe if the Spanish hadn't blown it big time and squandered the Billions they've received from the member states of the EU, who's airines the Spanish controllers are now targeting, then there wouldn't be a need to have their terms and conditions altered in the first place.
How about maybe trying to find a scape goat issue to deflect attention away from the sorry state the Spainish state is now in - like, say Gibraltar for example ! Oh yeah, already been done......
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Saxonbloke, read post #35, paragraph 7. If what Daermon says is true, the apparent English-language improficiency of certain Spanish controllers is more to blame than their being obstinate or petulant. Unprofessional maybe, if you take their lack of English-language training into account. Albeit not necessarily their own fault, when a flawed system allows it to happen in the first place.
Rather than take the risk of giving a long-winded and potentially confusing instruction in English to a non-Spanish pilot, so that their aircraft may take up a suddenly-available space in an approach sequence (or taxi sequence), it's evidently easier and safer for them to continue giving short, sharp instructions in their own mother tongue to Spanish carriers and maintain some form of manageable flow, while non-Spanish carriers remain in the hold. At least that's my understanding of it...
Likewise, Quintilian now reveals that he/she does the same with charter carriers in Scandinavia, be it for poor English proficiency on behalf of the pilots or their lack of familiarity with local procedures or potential "short cuts". As a matter of interest, Quintilian, where might these charter carrier pilots originate from, roughly speaking? My experience of them in seemingly unfamiliar territory has been acceptable overall. Normally, at least one of the crew has a reasonably good command of English and generally, the more they fly the route, the more aware and responsive they become to local procedures, phraseology and cheeky short cuts. It would seem that the same cannot be said for controllers, however, as they are often alone in a single sector and don't have a more proficient tongue to help them when they get stuck for words.
Perhaps what this thread should really be addressing is that maybe the level of English-language training is worse in some countries than in others, for both controllers and pilots? Is ICAO Level 4 really an acceptable minimum level of proficiency? How credible are certain training institutes like SENASA in Madrid (or elsewhere) when it comes to issuing so-called Level 4 language certificates? And regarding local procedures and potential shortcuts, perhaps these should be banned to give everyone an equal approach? But this completely flies in the face of safely expediting traffic, our objective.
So surely the onus is on the pilot and controller (and ultimately the airline, ANSP and training institute) to be fully up to speed and proficient in the universal aviation language, English. Otherwise, let them pay the extra fuel bill, and not necessarily the airlines. Easier said than done of course, when the system itself is flawed...
Rather than take the risk of giving a long-winded and potentially confusing instruction in English to a non-Spanish pilot, so that their aircraft may take up a suddenly-available space in an approach sequence (or taxi sequence), it's evidently easier and safer for them to continue giving short, sharp instructions in their own mother tongue to Spanish carriers and maintain some form of manageable flow, while non-Spanish carriers remain in the hold. At least that's my understanding of it...
Likewise, Quintilian now reveals that he/she does the same with charter carriers in Scandinavia, be it for poor English proficiency on behalf of the pilots or their lack of familiarity with local procedures or potential "short cuts". As a matter of interest, Quintilian, where might these charter carrier pilots originate from, roughly speaking? My experience of them in seemingly unfamiliar territory has been acceptable overall. Normally, at least one of the crew has a reasonably good command of English and generally, the more they fly the route, the more aware and responsive they become to local procedures, phraseology and cheeky short cuts. It would seem that the same cannot be said for controllers, however, as they are often alone in a single sector and don't have a more proficient tongue to help them when they get stuck for words.
Perhaps what this thread should really be addressing is that maybe the level of English-language training is worse in some countries than in others, for both controllers and pilots? Is ICAO Level 4 really an acceptable minimum level of proficiency? How credible are certain training institutes like SENASA in Madrid (or elsewhere) when it comes to issuing so-called Level 4 language certificates? And regarding local procedures and potential shortcuts, perhaps these should be banned to give everyone an equal approach? But this completely flies in the face of safely expediting traffic, our objective.
So surely the onus is on the pilot and controller (and ultimately the airline, ANSP and training institute) to be fully up to speed and proficient in the universal aviation language, English. Otherwise, let them pay the extra fuel bill, and not necessarily the airlines. Easier said than done of course, when the system itself is flawed...
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Chugalug evolved quickly after that flight
There must always be a first and thus a last.
However any one party organizes its thoughts, there will always be a winner.
Re Spain, if the ATC are criminated for errors, then yes stick with SOP, so who ever designed the SOP is to blame.
Not much different in ME.
However any one party organizes its thoughts, there will always be a winner.
Re Spain, if the ATC are criminated for errors, then yes stick with SOP, so who ever designed the SOP is to blame.
Not much different in ME.
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From R&N
Report: Iberia A321 and Jet2 B752 at Tenerife on Nov 12th 2011, loss of separation on runway
Says it all, really. I see someone has asked 'Did the IB get a landing clearance?' Is the pope a Catholic?
(Apart from the initial clearance at 6nm at 232kts), the landing clearance should have been cancelled by ATC and re-issued when safe.
Cowboys. Then to suggest the 757 was 'slow' to action the take-off clearance.....................
Report: Iberia A321 and Jet2 B752 at Tenerife on Nov 12th 2011, loss of separation on runway
Says it all, really. I see someone has asked 'Did the IB get a landing clearance?' Is the pope a Catholic?
(Apart from the initial clearance at 6nm at 232kts), the landing clearance should have been cancelled by ATC and re-issued when safe.
Cowboys. Then to suggest the 757 was 'slow' to action the take-off clearance.....................
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WHY ?
The answer is very simple.
The current situation is due to the events that occurred in 2010 and its consequences. Spaniard ATC are not willing to work as they did before.
This attitude shows solidarity and collective corporatism that has the ATC in Spain.
I do not agree with what they did in December 2010. However, I understand that now they do not want to know anything ...It is the price ¡
The answer is very simple.
The current situation is due to the events that occurred in 2010 and its consequences. Spaniard ATC are not willing to work as they did before.
This attitude shows solidarity and collective corporatism that has the ATC in Spain.
I do not agree with what they did in December 2010. However, I understand that now they do not want to know anything ...It is the price ¡
