"Late update penalty" on a slot
Thread Starter
"Late update penalty" on a slot
Hello all. This morning, about to operate a first wave flight from home base, we were delayed by a baggage system failure in the terminal which meant us missing our slot by about 2 minutes. I called our company operations to inform them we wouldn't be able to be airborne for CTOT+10mins, gave them a new EOBT and asked them if they could sort us a new slot accordingly. Very shortly afterwards, the ops controller replied saying we had been given a new slot an hour later because a "late update penalty" had been applied.
I've never heard of this before and, without knowing about the inner workings of Eurocontrol in much detail, it seems absolutely absurd that a punitive delay can be imposed due to missing a slot for reasons outside our control. Issues like this happen - nothing can be done about it. I work for one of the biggest LCCs in Europe, who must pay millions in Air Traffic Services fees every year, and it doesn't seem right that an arbitrary delay can be casually applied to a customer for no reason other than an unfortunate occurrence way down the chain.
I'm interested to know if I really understood this properly. I can understand if the system was at capacity and a long slot delay was necessary, but this morning it improved by over half an hour as soon as we sent a "ready" message and the airspace did not appear "busy" (although I acknowledge this isn't exactly a scientific analysis.) Were we really punished simply for letting Eurocontrol know we'd missed our slot by a couple of minutes at the last second?
And if so - why?
I've never heard of this before and, without knowing about the inner workings of Eurocontrol in much detail, it seems absolutely absurd that a punitive delay can be imposed due to missing a slot for reasons outside our control. Issues like this happen - nothing can be done about it. I work for one of the biggest LCCs in Europe, who must pay millions in Air Traffic Services fees every year, and it doesn't seem right that an arbitrary delay can be casually applied to a customer for no reason other than an unfortunate occurrence way down the chain.
I'm interested to know if I really understood this properly. I can understand if the system was at capacity and a long slot delay was necessary, but this morning it improved by over half an hour as soon as we sent a "ready" message and the airspace did not appear "busy" (although I acknowledge this isn't exactly a scientific analysis.) Were we really punished simply for letting Eurocontrol know we'd missed our slot by a couple of minutes at the last second?
And if so - why?
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missing our slot by about 2 minutes.
In my 20+ years in air traffic I have never heard of a "late update penalty", but then given some of the arsey people who work for handling agents (yes, I know they're not all like that but I have met many over the years who have big chips and bad attitudes), that could just have been their spin on it.
I work at an airport in the SW which sees plenty of slots of which a few get missed and it's not uncommon to see new CTOTs come in (as with your case) where a Ready Message has the affect of bringing forward. It's not outside the realms of possibility that another flight had a problem on the same route and missed it's slot/was cancelled which then gave you the vacant CTOT.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the reply. You assume correctly in that we missed the CTOT+10 window (or rather, would have done had we bothered to try.)
I know there's nothing unusual in getting a slot an hour later than the missed one. My question arose specifically because I stayed on the telephone to our ops controller while she was re-filing for the new slot time and she actually used the words "you've been given a late update penalty" as if she was reading it off a computer screen.
I know there's nothing unusual in getting a slot an hour later than the missed one. My question arose specifically because I stayed on the telephone to our ops controller while she was re-filing for the new slot time and she actually used the words "you've been given a late update penalty" as if she was reading it off a computer screen.
As I recall it there isn't a "late update penalty", though if you are delaying your plan close to P time regardless of if you have a slot or not, you known/reffered to as a 'late updater', i.e. what it says on the tin. This is why on a visit to CFMU the slot guys/girls who oversee the computerised system, always suggest delay as early as practical, i.e. if you know you're going to miss that slot, delay your P time to an accurate one asap. That delays updates within CFMU computer systems and puts you right at the back of any queue,(you are the last one to update your P time), so you can receive an initial significant CTOT delay. This can then come forward quickly as per SN's last para.
Having worked in LoCo ops flight planning this was very common particularly on busy airports/routes like Spanish resorts and busy city routes. The CFMU computer is constantly revising CTOT's as people delay, re-route, restrictions change, eg another sector is opened/closed. Once the 'delay' was sent then a 'ready' message would be sent in quick succession, to enable the automated CFMU to automatically process your ready message to get an improvement if available. If there is availability then the improvement can be rapid, and can sometimes return a CTOT only a matter of minutes from the one you've rejected, which also is of no use to you. This is why its best practise to delay early, i.e. when you know its going pear shaped enough to miss a P/CTOT time, and accurately so you don't get a revised P/CTOT time that's too early.
I wouldn't file a complaint, In my experience it sounds like a 'terminology' thing, and sounds SOP. We referred to 'late' flight plan delays as a 'late update'. If you are a late updater you go to the back of the queue automatically, so the CFMU software can re-shuffle you in the pack within the existing restrictions. That's without looking at other factors such as change of route or flight levels. The late update just reflects what's on your existing plog in terms of route/FL's.
Having worked in LoCo ops flight planning this was very common particularly on busy airports/routes like Spanish resorts and busy city routes. The CFMU computer is constantly revising CTOT's as people delay, re-route, restrictions change, eg another sector is opened/closed. Once the 'delay' was sent then a 'ready' message would be sent in quick succession, to enable the automated CFMU to automatically process your ready message to get an improvement if available. If there is availability then the improvement can be rapid, and can sometimes return a CTOT only a matter of minutes from the one you've rejected, which also is of no use to you. This is why its best practise to delay early, i.e. when you know its going pear shaped enough to miss a P/CTOT time, and accurately so you don't get a revised P/CTOT time that's too early.
I wouldn't file a complaint, In my experience it sounds like a 'terminology' thing, and sounds SOP. We referred to 'late' flight plan delays as a 'late update'. If you are a late updater you go to the back of the queue automatically, so the CFMU software can re-shuffle you in the pack within the existing restrictions. That's without looking at other factors such as change of route or flight levels. The late update just reflects what's on your existing plog in terms of route/FL's.
Last edited by jumpseater; 30th Jun 2013 at 18:40.
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Zippy, I'd put it through your base captain if I was you, just to get clarification of what that phrase means particularly if it was used by a company ops agent rather than a handling agent (I took you up wrong on that one, sorry). I'm intrigued enough to have noted this down and will ask when I'm back at work.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies folks - appreciated. I'm not going to file a complaint; ATC have their job to do just as we have ours and I'm always very respectful of that. (Plus, I'm pretty new in the LHS and don't want to kick up an unnecessary stink!) I am just interested in finding out if I understood what happened correctly and if there was some SOP in CFMU that I wasn't aware of. I was a little taken aback by the notion that you can be given a proportionally worse delay simply for the late notification (about which we could do very little) but if that's the rules, so be it. At least I'll know for next time.
I'll run it by the base captain as you suggest, SN; that's usually my first port of call.
I'll run it by the base captain as you suggest, SN; that's usually my first port of call.
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something is wrong with that particular ATC unit.
we have no such problems.
50 % or more SLOTS we consider it as false. On example, slots for Switzerland is only considered if it is winter,in summer we are not bored with it. When you are ready -taxi and take off clearance follows.
If we apply SLOTS than, rule should be read as : -5+10 from any other applicable time ,on example, CTOT 1200 minus 5 could be anything started with 11 (1101-1159) or plus 10 anything between 1201-1259.
Third, our ACC has some system that must be cheated. So you have to give than estimate for poitns. But that estimate could be anything because, system need any info for starting process , as soon as radars catch the target -system automatically gives all actual estimates. On example a/c has slot for 1200, but via telephone you give logic estimate for that slot,regardless actual time. So 2/3/5 /10 minutes is always possible to arrange that a/c is airborne and everyone happy. We always could say, wind, eg....
we have no such problems.
50 % or more SLOTS we consider it as false. On example, slots for Switzerland is only considered if it is winter,in summer we are not bored with it. When you are ready -taxi and take off clearance follows.
If we apply SLOTS than, rule should be read as : -5+10 from any other applicable time ,on example, CTOT 1200 minus 5 could be anything started with 11 (1101-1159) or plus 10 anything between 1201-1259.
Third, our ACC has some system that must be cheated. So you have to give than estimate for poitns. But that estimate could be anything because, system need any info for starting process , as soon as radars catch the target -system automatically gives all actual estimates. On example a/c has slot for 1200, but via telephone you give logic estimate for that slot,regardless actual time. So 2/3/5 /10 minutes is always possible to arrange that a/c is airborne and everyone happy. We always could say, wind, eg....
PPRuNe Bashaholic
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The phrase is only a 'status' used by the CFMU and presumably your Ops Controller is jumping to conclusions based on a lack of knowledge as to what it means.
Most flights just have a normal status or one referring to the last message type issued by CFMU to the flight, but as you found out, some can have a 'Late' code assigned to them.
LF for Late Filer (FPL filed with less than required time stated in AIP - 3 hours normally)
LU for Late Updater (Change to EOBT filed late - I believe this is less than 20 minutes before EOBT)
LFU for Late Filer and Updater (FPL filed late and then changed late)
As others have said, if any of these status messages apply to your flight, you will be automatically given the next available slot. The CFMU automatic system primarily works on a 'First Filed - First Served' philosophy. If it's busy and the airspace is already experiencing heavy demand, your revised CTOT could be some significant time in the future as that's when the next available slot will be. Everyone else filed in the system, and now deemed ahead of you in the slot allocation process, have already taken all the others. The LF, LU, or LFU status will show Network Managers the reason for your excessive delay, and may trigger them in to improving things for you, if they can. Other aircraft slotted within your Regulation changing their status with CFMU can also free up slots which can bring your CTOT significantly forward. With a Ready message from the Aircraft Operator or Departure ATC, this is much easier to manage as they know that the aircraft can be got airborne relatively quickly if a gap becomes available in the slots.
Filing a complaint is pointless, simply because CFMU have been complying with the rules, however, your Ops Controller should be aware that CFMU have a Help Desk which they can contact to find out more information (if they don't understand what is happening or terminology) or to discuss what might be done in the way of assistance in improving things for an individual flight experiencing excessive delay.
Most flights just have a normal status or one referring to the last message type issued by CFMU to the flight, but as you found out, some can have a 'Late' code assigned to them.
LF for Late Filer (FPL filed with less than required time stated in AIP - 3 hours normally)
LU for Late Updater (Change to EOBT filed late - I believe this is less than 20 minutes before EOBT)
LFU for Late Filer and Updater (FPL filed late and then changed late)
As others have said, if any of these status messages apply to your flight, you will be automatically given the next available slot. The CFMU automatic system primarily works on a 'First Filed - First Served' philosophy. If it's busy and the airspace is already experiencing heavy demand, your revised CTOT could be some significant time in the future as that's when the next available slot will be. Everyone else filed in the system, and now deemed ahead of you in the slot allocation process, have already taken all the others. The LF, LU, or LFU status will show Network Managers the reason for your excessive delay, and may trigger them in to improving things for you, if they can. Other aircraft slotted within your Regulation changing their status with CFMU can also free up slots which can bring your CTOT significantly forward. With a Ready message from the Aircraft Operator or Departure ATC, this is much easier to manage as they know that the aircraft can be got airborne relatively quickly if a gap becomes available in the slots.
Filing a complaint is pointless, simply because CFMU have been complying with the rules, however, your Ops Controller should be aware that CFMU have a Help Desk which they can contact to find out more information (if they don't understand what is happening or terminology) or to discuss what might be done in the way of assistance in improving things for an individual flight experiencing excessive delay.
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@AFTN LFFAPVPX
Hi everyone,
I asked an airline to post me the log to check whether it is true what they state and they sent, me amongst other info, this line: @AFTN LFFAPVPX. They will not give any further clues.
As I'm not familiar with this niche language I searched google for clues but cannot find any explanations. Could anyone please explain?. I see 'late filer' in LF. Am I right? And what for stands the rest?
Thanks
I asked an airline to post me the log to check whether it is true what they state and they sent, me amongst other info, this line: @AFTN LFFAPVPX. They will not give any further clues.
As I'm not familiar with this niche language I searched google for clues but cannot find any explanations. Could anyone please explain?. I see 'late filer' in LF. Am I right? And what for stands the rest?
Thanks
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No you are not right, as eagleflyer says that is just a telecommunications address.
Perhaps you could give us some more information and the rest of the message? Are you just a customer who is trying to complain to an airline about a delayed flight?
Perhaps you could give us some more information and the rest of the message? Are you just a customer who is trying to complain to an airline about a delayed flight?
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Is the CFMU open to public scrutiny? Is is possible to enquire how the system works and for them (EuroControl) to tell us where it is lacking? I'm going to guess not - it has the word 'Euro' in the title. I also get the feeling that they are little more than Carol in Little Britain - "...the computer says No." I say that because some days slots are issued and leap around the place like demons yet the sky is empty at the alleged bottleneck, other days the sky is saturated and controllers are pulling their hair out dealing with traffic are there no slots. Other days you re-file at a different level to avoid a slot and find not only is your original level available but you get a direct of you climb. It's a poor system we just have to put up with while it wrecks people's travel plans.
PM
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Just when I thought ignorance was a thing of the past I read these posts. I suggest we return to the mid '80's and count the prangs out there. Slots are fore safety, not someone taking a dislike to you (although I can see why they might).
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I presume you are referring to my post autolycus? If it is, I'd love to hear the correlation between slot management in the 80's and prangs. My post was based on being on the blunt end of slot restrictions which appear to have little to do with actual traffic, as I stated. What I know for sure is that enroute and terminal arrival slots are based on a notional value of capacity that appears to have little to do with the actual capacity. I have sat for too often, too long with a fully loaded aicraft ('fully ready'; I hate the phrase) only to find when we are 45 minutes late on a one hour flight that our slot is cancelled. Arriving at the restriction you find the sky is empty. If the slot was 'real' I'd expect the sector to be busy. But that is rarely the case.
Now I know LHR is not perfect but that place manages traffic. You may be slowed up miles out and whizz a few times around the hold, but I don't feel as if I have been conned whe I arrive there. It's busy and working full blast, both in the air on the ground. And the departure rate is impressive by anyone's standards. The places I have the problem with are elsewhere in Europe.
PM
Now I know LHR is not perfect but that place manages traffic. You may be slowed up miles out and whizz a few times around the hold, but I don't feel as if I have been conned whe I arrive there. It's busy and working full blast, both in the air on the ground. And the departure rate is impressive by anyone's standards. The places I have the problem with are elsewhere in Europe.
PM
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Zippy, what happened to you is probably due to an unfortunate occurrence, but many fellow pilots just don't care about losing a CTOT even when it's pretty clear to them, they will just let it expire to get a new one later , this is not a problem for the ATC operations but it's not fair 'cause someone else, somewhere else, should be able to use your slot, one day (it already happened for sure and you don't know) you will spend some more time on the tarmac because of one of this guys.
Another thing to clarify is that you don't have a window, the window is exclusively meant for ATC use, if your CTOT was at 1200 at time 1212 you missed it by 12 minutes, not 2.
Another thing to clarify is that you don't have a window, the window is exclusively meant for ATC use, if your CTOT was at 1200 at time 1212 you missed it by 12 minutes, not 2.
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or the times there should have been more flow on when you end up with 3 fuel PANs and a MAYDAY and you cease to be able to provide proper priority and sterile runway for them all.
