ATC DXB
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ATC DXB
Seen a gradual deterioration in the tones of DXB controllers . They seem to on edge all the time , downright rude and non professional in their tenor. Its getting worse last few months . Though never the chummy sorts ATC DXB was always professional in its tone and content. Last few times have heard tongue lashings which have being nasty given in response to missed transmission or wrong readbacks. And its not yet 50 Celsius yet
Whats happening there ??
The Charm of the desert wearing off or the work pressure getting too much ?
Whats happening there ??
The Charm of the desert wearing off or the work pressure getting too much ?
Last edited by jet_737ng; 27th Feb 2013 at 19:20.
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Morale is at rock bottom right now.
-Traffic numbers have been increasing at 15% ish per annum for 10 years or so.
-Complexity much higher than it used to be.
-Airspace limitations constantly increasing.
-Continuously changing procedures.
-Sub standard equipment.
-More positions to man so fewer breaks / more fatigue.
-Radar controllers have been at JXB for a year now - 70km drive, no canteen so no decent food / coffee.
-Salaries haven't increased more than a few percent since 2007.
-Schooling allowances don't cover the costs.
-Medical insurance is crap.
-Airline discounts negligible. (none of your ID90s here!)
All of this does not excuse unprofessional behaviour but does go some way towards explaining the increasing discontent.
-Traffic numbers have been increasing at 15% ish per annum for 10 years or so.
-Complexity much higher than it used to be.
-Airspace limitations constantly increasing.
-Continuously changing procedures.
-Sub standard equipment.
-More positions to man so fewer breaks / more fatigue.
-Radar controllers have been at JXB for a year now - 70km drive, no canteen so no decent food / coffee.
-Salaries haven't increased more than a few percent since 2007.
-Schooling allowances don't cover the costs.
-Medical insurance is crap.
-Airline discounts negligible. (none of your ID90s here!)
All of this does not excuse unprofessional behaviour but does go some way towards explaining the increasing discontent.
Last edited by Guy D'ageradar; 28th Feb 2013 at 05:32.
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Bit of a sweeping generalisation there 737. Maybe part of what you are hearing is in response to the ever increasing number of crew who find it impossible to either read back or comply with the simplest of clearances and retain no situational awareness.
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Guy,
I'm not sure if you'll get a lot of sympathy about the ''tough'' conditions in Dubai.
You could always stick your hand up for Baghdad.Better money,got a canteen,3km to work(cos you live at gate 67).Schooling and all that not a concern as your family stay at home and 3 days off whatsthats.Sure there would be a few swap with you for Dubai is you let the 50 year old + very experienced Tower and Radar controllers have a go.No need to get ar
sy with the pilots on the r/t.Remember English is often nae their mither tongue.
Hey try living in a hooch with a flak jacket in the cupboard.
I'm not sure if you'll get a lot of sympathy about the ''tough'' conditions in Dubai.
You could always stick your hand up for Baghdad.Better money,got a canteen,3km to work(cos you live at gate 67).Schooling and all that not a concern as your family stay at home and 3 days off whatsthats.Sure there would be a few swap with you for Dubai is you let the 50 year old + very experienced Tower and Radar controllers have a go.No need to get ar
sy with the pilots on the r/t.Remember English is often nae their mither tongue.Hey try living in a hooch with a flak jacket in the cupboard.
Last edited by throw a dyce; 28th Feb 2013 at 07:10.
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Hi Jet,
I don't work in Dubai, I work in a nearby approach unit that also begins with a 'D' but unlike Dubai and Baghdad everything here is wonderful and I couldn't possibly start to think of how we could improve conditions here.
Nevertheless, despite our near perfect situation, we too have to repeat ourselves an abnormal amount of times and correct read backs on a regular basis and this tends to upset some controllers more than others.
I would guess you have encountered the few edgy ones that would tend to stand out and who would be edgy anywhere they worked. Possibly they've been hired over the last few years (turn around is quick out here) and that would make it appear as a trend.
As Guy says there's no excuse for it but I wouldn't label it as a 'Dubai' experience, more of an unfortunate individual encounter.
Always keep the big picture in mind: Sunshine and Dirhams!
I don't work in Dubai, I work in a nearby approach unit that also begins with a 'D' but unlike Dubai and Baghdad everything here is wonderful and I couldn't possibly start to think of how we could improve conditions here.
Nevertheless, despite our near perfect situation, we too have to repeat ourselves an abnormal amount of times and correct read backs on a regular basis and this tends to upset some controllers more than others.
I would guess you have encountered the few edgy ones that would tend to stand out and who would be edgy anywhere they worked. Possibly they've been hired over the last few years (turn around is quick out here) and that would make it appear as a trend.
As Guy says there's no excuse for it but I wouldn't label it as a 'Dubai' experience, more of an unfortunate individual encounter.
Always keep the big picture in mind: Sunshine and Dirhams!
Guy D'ageradar
"Airline discounts negligible. (none of your ID90s here!)"
Thats not uncommon for ATCOs in the real world, "conflict of interest" springs to mind when ANSP encounter this perk.
ID 90s nice to have but not an entitlement for ATCOs.
No ATCO job is perfect. There are many in the queue who would jump at the chance of taking your job. As I did in the past, you need to decide when the job, and all it offers, is no longer for you and move on.
"Airline discounts negligible. (none of your ID90s here!)"
Thats not uncommon for ATCOs in the real world, "conflict of interest" springs to mind when ANSP encounter this perk.
ID 90s nice to have but not an entitlement for ATCOs.
No ATCO job is perfect. There are many in the queue who would jump at the chance of taking your job. As I did in the past, you need to decide when the job, and all it offers, is no longer for you and move on.
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TAD
737 asked a question - I simply tried to answer it.
TCAS
[QUOTE]No ATCO job is perfect. There are many in the queue who would jump at the chance of taking your job. /QUOTE]
Not sure about that - according to rumours here, the CV pile is very thin at the moment.
[QUOTE]As I did in the past, you need to decide when the job, and all it offers, is no longer for you and move on./QUOTE]
Agreed. I'm not there at the moment but several others are. The above concerns are not necessarily mine - but are heard every day in the ops / break rooms.
737 asked a question - I simply tried to answer it.
TCAS
[QUOTE]No ATCO job is perfect. There are many in the queue who would jump at the chance of taking your job. /QUOTE]
Not sure about that - according to rumours here, the CV pile is very thin at the moment.
[QUOTE]As I did in the past, you need to decide when the job, and all it offers, is no longer for you and move on./QUOTE]
Agreed. I'm not there at the moment but several others are. The above concerns are not necessarily mine - but are heard every day in the ops / break rooms.
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Tough lashings!!! You should of heard a large British guy who used to work the radar until a couple of years ago!!!
Sweet as a nut with the headset off, however his favourite phrase, " a full call sign is required with each and every transmission" plus " can I speak to the captain please"
As for the Dubai controllers having it tough. Things will only improve when staff start to leave, how do you think you got the pay your on now??? Because some of us left!!!!
Enjoy the summer heat guys and girls!!!
Sweet as a nut with the headset off, however his favourite phrase, " a full call sign is required with each and every transmission" plus " can I speak to the captain please"
As for the Dubai controllers having it tough. Things will only improve when staff start to leave, how do you think you got the pay your on now??? Because some of us left!!!!
Enjoy the summer heat guys and girls!!!
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Falconeasydriver: in a word, no.
Jet_737ng, I'm sorry if this is how you feel about Dubai ATC. However, I believe that the unique melting pot that is Dubai plays a large part in the occasional tongue lashings that may or may not be administered over the RT.
Allow me to explain.
The vast majority of Dubai ATCOs (in the Tower at least) come from a background where there is generally a very high standard both trained to and expected of ATCOs and pilots alike. Whether ATCOs are from Europe, North America or Australia, we expected in our 'home' countries that all the pilots we spoke to, for example, would have at least a basic grasp of English. It is, after all, considered the international language of aviation.
We also expected pilots to possess a basic level of airmanship in order to operate safely and efficiently in and out of busy, international airports.
However, in Dubai, we are confronted with an enormous contrast with pilots and airlines operating from every corner of the globe. I would be surprised if Dubai didn't hold the title for the most eclectic and varied mix of airlines and countries represented at one airport.
So how does this impact operationally?
1. Pilots with less than basic English, and certainly less that the required minima for ICAO standards who then take up an inordinate amount of RT time as we have to baby step them through clearances and instructions.
2. Pilots who lack basic airmanship. For example, on handover from Twr to GMC immediately talking on GMC without waiting a few seconds to see if they might be stepping on another pilot or the GMC ATCO, causing extra RT transmissions on already congested frequencies. Or how about the pilots who report runway vacated when they're still rolling out after landing and are still on the runway centerline? Or even better, the ones who come to a grinding halt on the high speed runway exit with the tail centimeters clear of the runway edge then call runway clear, causing go-arounds?
3. And it's not just issues with crews. Dubai is an airport already playing significant catch up with the amount of traffic it has. The infrastructure of the airport is simply not good enough to cope with all the aircraft using it. If you've ever arrived between 6-8am and had to wait up to 45mins for a stand you'll know what I'm talking about. And is there any other airport in the world where one of it's 2 runways has to close, every week, for 2 successive afternoons for runway maintenance, whatever that means?
4. Or how about the 'home' airline who schedule all their morning departures to depart in a one hour window, then have the temerity to bitch and moan if they get delayed? They actually timetable 4 or 5 departures to go at the same time at various times of the morning, then can't understand why they pick up delays.
5. Or my particular favorite, when there are significant start up delays for whatever reason (ground congestion, flow restrictions for LVOs etc), the pilot calls ready and gets put in a queue to be advised of a significant delay then asks every 5 minutes for their number in the queue.
The above is just a couple of grumbles and bugbears that me and my colleagues have and is by no means a complete list. That's without even touching on the equipment and procedures we have to put up with and senior management who don't appear capable of standing up for the ATCOs and just pile on more and more change with more and more new equipment without even bothering to make sure it all works properly. We're still waiting for our new GMR to be fixed since its introduction last year, and I dread to think what's going on down the road for our approach colleagues and the new AT3 system.
And I'm not even going to get started on our beloved HR department who appear to exist purely to make life more difficult for the rest of us, and who's growth in numbers appears to correlate directly with the amount of work they appear to not do.
Finally 737, please remember there are always 2 sides of a coin. Have you ever visited Dubai Tower? I would bet my mortgage you haven't. In all my years here, I can count on one hand the number of groups of pilots I have seen on liaison visits to actually see what we have to deal with every day. Considering the number of pilots with Emirates and FlyDubai alone, that's a pretty damning indictment about the attitude of aircrews towards ATC.
Jet_737ng, I'm sorry if this is how you feel about Dubai ATC. However, I believe that the unique melting pot that is Dubai plays a large part in the occasional tongue lashings that may or may not be administered over the RT.
Allow me to explain.
The vast majority of Dubai ATCOs (in the Tower at least) come from a background where there is generally a very high standard both trained to and expected of ATCOs and pilots alike. Whether ATCOs are from Europe, North America or Australia, we expected in our 'home' countries that all the pilots we spoke to, for example, would have at least a basic grasp of English. It is, after all, considered the international language of aviation.
We also expected pilots to possess a basic level of airmanship in order to operate safely and efficiently in and out of busy, international airports.
However, in Dubai, we are confronted with an enormous contrast with pilots and airlines operating from every corner of the globe. I would be surprised if Dubai didn't hold the title for the most eclectic and varied mix of airlines and countries represented at one airport.
So how does this impact operationally?
1. Pilots with less than basic English, and certainly less that the required minima for ICAO standards who then take up an inordinate amount of RT time as we have to baby step them through clearances and instructions.
2. Pilots who lack basic airmanship. For example, on handover from Twr to GMC immediately talking on GMC without waiting a few seconds to see if they might be stepping on another pilot or the GMC ATCO, causing extra RT transmissions on already congested frequencies. Or how about the pilots who report runway vacated when they're still rolling out after landing and are still on the runway centerline? Or even better, the ones who come to a grinding halt on the high speed runway exit with the tail centimeters clear of the runway edge then call runway clear, causing go-arounds?
3. And it's not just issues with crews. Dubai is an airport already playing significant catch up with the amount of traffic it has. The infrastructure of the airport is simply not good enough to cope with all the aircraft using it. If you've ever arrived between 6-8am and had to wait up to 45mins for a stand you'll know what I'm talking about. And is there any other airport in the world where one of it's 2 runways has to close, every week, for 2 successive afternoons for runway maintenance, whatever that means?
4. Or how about the 'home' airline who schedule all their morning departures to depart in a one hour window, then have the temerity to bitch and moan if they get delayed? They actually timetable 4 or 5 departures to go at the same time at various times of the morning, then can't understand why they pick up delays.
5. Or my particular favorite, when there are significant start up delays for whatever reason (ground congestion, flow restrictions for LVOs etc), the pilot calls ready and gets put in a queue to be advised of a significant delay then asks every 5 minutes for their number in the queue.
The above is just a couple of grumbles and bugbears that me and my colleagues have and is by no means a complete list. That's without even touching on the equipment and procedures we have to put up with and senior management who don't appear capable of standing up for the ATCOs and just pile on more and more change with more and more new equipment without even bothering to make sure it all works properly. We're still waiting for our new GMR to be fixed since its introduction last year, and I dread to think what's going on down the road for our approach colleagues and the new AT3 system.
And I'm not even going to get started on our beloved HR department who appear to exist purely to make life more difficult for the rest of us, and who's growth in numbers appears to correlate directly with the amount of work they appear to not do.
Finally 737, please remember there are always 2 sides of a coin. Have you ever visited Dubai Tower? I would bet my mortgage you haven't. In all my years here, I can count on one hand the number of groups of pilots I have seen on liaison visits to actually see what we have to deal with every day. Considering the number of pilots with Emirates and FlyDubai alone, that's a pretty damning indictment about the attitude of aircrews towards ATC.
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4. Or how about the 'home' airline who schedule all their morning departures to depart in a one hour window, then have the temerity to bitch and moan if they get delayed? They actually timetable 4 or 5 departures to go at the same time at various times of the morning, then can't understand why they pick up delays.
5. Or my particular favorite, when there are significant start up delays for whatever reason (ground congestion, flow restrictions for LVOs etc), the pilot calls ready and gets put in a queue to be advised of a significant delay then asks every 5 minutes for their number in the queue.
Last edited by falconeasydriver; 2nd Mar 2013 at 16:35.
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thanks guys at least it gives an understanding and a sense to some situations. But to get into DXB tower would be awesome . Any ideas what the formalities are for foreign airline crew to make a visit?
On a lighter note how the hell do you understand the ruskies , usbeks and the chinese ( and few other nationalities ) ? its seems at times at bit of guess work what the other side is saying...
... as pilot half the time i have no idea what the antonov said , it didnt sound anything close to english but most of you get it bang on ...
On a lighter note how the hell do you understand the ruskies , usbeks and the chinese ( and few other nationalities ) ? its seems at times at bit of guess work what the other side is saying...
... as pilot half the time i have no idea what the antonov said , it didnt sound anything close to english but most of you get it bang on ...
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On a lighter note how the hell do you understand the ruskies , usbeks and the chinese...
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[QUOTE] Not sure about that - according to rumours here, the CV pile is very thin at the moment.
From what I heard there were about 200 applications for the last jobs offered. They are down to 16 in the recruitment process now.
From what I heard there were about 200 applications for the last jobs offered. They are down to 16 in the recruitment process now.
