Let's watch TV instead of radar
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Let's watch TV instead of radar
UK mulls 'radical' shake-up of air traffic control
Mmmm, much better idea than using dedicated and managed systems. I guess I'm turning into one of those Luddites that the man from Thales has in mind!
Mmmm, much better idea than using dedicated and managed systems. I guess I'm turning into one of those Luddites that the man from Thales has in mind!
Last edited by Spitoon; 12th February 2013 at 18:02.
Joined: Sep 2000
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From: South of England
The proposed system works by utilising the TV transmitters that are dotted around the UK.
Each will receive the same TV signal but at a slightly different time because of the reflections and interactions with aircraft flying in their vicinity.
The received signals are then compared to the original broadcast, and the difference is used to locate the position of the aircraft.
Each will receive the same TV signal but at a slightly different time because of the reflections and interactions with aircraft flying in their vicinity.
The received signals are then compared to the original broadcast, and the difference is used to locate the position of the aircraft.
2 s
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Southern England
Sounds like a hare brained wide area multilateration proposal whipped up to grab government funding
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From: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Sounds like a scheme to free-up space for mobile phones, so that more people can ring more people and shout. "I'm on the train".
To hell with the safety of those in aeroplanes.
HS2 enabling, isn't it, Mmm?
Marvellous.
To hell with the safety of those in aeroplanes.
HS2 enabling, isn't it, Mmm?
Marvellous.
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From: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
And by the way, what will happen when peoples' 42'' Panasonic suddenly switches from Brucies' Strictly Come Dancing From Hell On Ice I'm A Waste Of Carbon Atoms Get Me Out Of Here....
To a close-up of the Ockham hold?
To a close-up of the Ockham hold?
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From: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
eglnyt,
I see a major MATS2 re-write on the horizon.....
Telly Information Service.
Telly Control Service.
Basic Service, i.e. CBBC.
Carol Voordeman Service.
I see a major MATS2 re-write on the horizon.....
Telly Information Service.
Telly Control Service.
Basic Service, i.e. CBBC.
Carol Voordeman Service.
Last edited by ZOOKER; 12th February 2013 at 19:59.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Reading, UK
Sounds like a scheme to free-up space for mobile phones, so that more people can ring more people and shout. "I'm on the train".
"There is an increasing demand for the use of the electromagnetic spectrum and it is likely that the current frequency allocations for PSR, in both the L- and S- bands, will come under threat, with MSPSR offering the potential to provide improved coverage and performance for a smaller frequency allocation."
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From: utopia
EGLNYT:
Yes, I'm being a bit cynical tonight
Its been bubbling under for many years (eg silent sentry), but I would doubt even the TV broadcast transmitters will be with us in another 20 years, their spectrum also sold off as we move forward to an ever connected all you can eat interwebbery
Yes, I'm being a bit cynical tonight
Its been bubbling under for many years (eg silent sentry), but I would doubt even the TV broadcast transmitters will be with us in another 20 years, their spectrum also sold off as we move forward to an ever connected all you can eat interwebbery
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: England
The TV broadcast band has recently been reduced to make way for 4g mobile services. Further channels will be removed by 2018.
There is a school of thought that by the early 2020's the majority of TV reception will be either from satellite or over fast broadband, which will make maintenance of the elaborate terrestrial TV network uneconomic and subject to closure.
So it would be inadvisable to base any new service on it.
There is a school of thought that by the early 2020's the majority of TV reception will be either from satellite or over fast broadband, which will make maintenance of the elaborate terrestrial TV network uneconomic and subject to closure.
So it would be inadvisable to base any new service on it.
Last edited by Sallyann1234; 13th February 2013 at 11:29.
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From: Wildest Surrey
1) To do this, the ITU would have to agree, and with some countries having very few TV transmitters, I can't see this happening.
2) There would have to be a 'robust' safety case to get the CAA to agree.
3) The CAA would probably require the signal to be 'clean' ie not carrying any broadcast material. This would negate one of the so-called advantages, as it would require dedicated transmitters, rather than use existing ones. As a 'for instance', the DGPS signal presently transmitted by commercial FM stations is not accessible from aviation GPS' presumably for this same reason.
2) There would have to be a 'robust' safety case to get the CAA to agree.
3) The CAA would probably require the signal to be 'clean' ie not carrying any broadcast material. This would negate one of the so-called advantages, as it would require dedicated transmitters, rather than use existing ones. As a 'for instance', the DGPS signal presently transmitted by commercial FM stations is not accessible from aviation GPS' presumably for this same reason.
Last edited by chevvron; 13th February 2013 at 14:53.
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From: Berkshire, UK
Have you ever seen what happens when there is QRM to the GPS system? And watching ADS-B equipped aircraft is fun too! What is wrong with the tried and tested radar system currently in use? Presumably extra links would have to be installed from the TV sites to the ATCCs and airfields?
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From: England
This is just the same as GPS but with a different reference source, surely?
As someone with considerable experience in this area, I can see all sorts of potential problems. It seems that the proposal relies on time differences for reflection of signals from multiple TV sites. I'm assuming that they would be looking at the TV signal carriers rather than the modulation on them, but this is complex matter with the current COFDM signals (8,000 carriers per multiplex)..
And each TV channel is used many times over across the country. Re-use of each channel is planned to minimise co-channel interference to domestic reception on the ground, but an aircraft will see and reflect signals from many transmitters on the same frequency. I'm not sure how the proposed system will sort them.
To deal with chevron's points:
1) the ITU would probably take little interest unless some modification was required to the TV transmissions, since the frequency planning criteria would not be affected. And if this was just a UK system, foreign broadcasts would not be needed.
2) and 3) yes absolutely.
I really believe for a whole host of reasons this is a non-starter.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Reading, UK
There's a more detailed account of the research project here:
Air Traffic Control Systems Could Ditch Radar And Release 5G Spectrum
which is worth a read.
Given that the participants in the research include both NATS and Roke, dismissing it as a crackpot idea may be a tad premature.
Air Traffic Control Systems Could Ditch Radar And Release 5G Spectrum
which is worth a read.
Given that the participants in the research include both NATS and Roke, dismissing it as a crackpot idea may be a tad premature.
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From: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
landedoutagain,
Which TV? You have loads of 'em up there.
If it's the one in the lounge, then it's a W2 problem.
If it's the one in the canteen, (sorry staff restaurant), relax, enjoy the food, the sunsets* and the view of Arran*, - especially at breakfast time.
*You don't get these features at Swan-wick.
Which TV? You have loads of 'em up there.
If it's the one in the lounge, then it's a W2 problem.
If it's the one in the canteen, (sorry staff restaurant), relax, enjoy the food, the sunsets* and the view of Arran*, - especially at breakfast time.
*You don't get these features at Swan-wick.