3rd Runway..is there airspace ?
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Heathrow - There are the helicopter routes over the Thames and then there's a SVFR clearance over Ascot, right? But as far as I know, there is no way of transitioning anywhere else. I could be wrong - it's been a while since I flew in London.
My point being is that by stepping down to a less restrictive airspace generally, transitions can be achieved anywhere and/or when traffic permits. This helps everyone, even IFR traffic.
My point being is that by stepping down to a less restrictive airspace generally, transitions can be achieved anywhere and/or when traffic permits. This helps everyone, even IFR traffic.
Last edited by AdamFrisch; 31st Aug 2012 at 14:50.
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When I flew into LAX earlier this year it seemed like we were on a closing heading for one of the westerly runways ever since flying over Vegas, and joined final approach at least 50 miles east of LAX. How does that work?
I'm a controller myself here in England and have often wondered about the differences in procedures and the way it's all done in the States. Forgetting the congestion within the US TMA's, my guess is that because of the very large, fairly empty, distances between the TMA's you can arrange/sequence the traffic much further out, plus design the procedures with a lot more freedom. Next time I'm near San Diego I'd love to pop in to SoCal Tracon and see how you guys do it.
My thoughts are that there are just too many regionals here in England, getting in the way of sequencing the London traffic farther out. Plus obviously the Paris/Amsterdam/Brussels/Manchester TMA's all fairly close by. Obviously this shows the regional's have enough traffic to get in the way, which is great, but they're all just a wee bit too densely packed here in little Blighty.
The messiness of the LTMA frightens me sometimes. Me reckons it would be one all mighty re-jig needed to fit in procedures for a third Heathrow runway.
I'm a controller myself here in England and have often wondered about the differences in procedures and the way it's all done in the States. Forgetting the congestion within the US TMA's, my guess is that because of the very large, fairly empty, distances between the TMA's you can arrange/sequence the traffic much further out, plus design the procedures with a lot more freedom. Next time I'm near San Diego I'd love to pop in to SoCal Tracon and see how you guys do it.
My thoughts are that there are just too many regionals here in England, getting in the way of sequencing the London traffic farther out. Plus obviously the Paris/Amsterdam/Brussels/Manchester TMA's all fairly close by. Obviously this shows the regional's have enough traffic to get in the way, which is great, but they're all just a wee bit too densely packed here in little Blighty.
The messiness of the LTMA frightens me sometimes. Me reckons it would be one all mighty re-jig needed to fit in procedures for a third Heathrow runway.
Course now if they re-opened Wisley instead of having the third runway actually at Heathrow, they could utilise airspace which is presently un-regulated and 'close' Mig Alley.
There's already a motorway linking both airfields after all.
There's already a motorway linking both airfields after all.
Last edited by chevvron; 4th Sep 2012 at 13:20.
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But I bet the first thing they'll propose is to expand class A, so the get rid of those pesky unwanted little small airplanes with the amateurs in them and the annoying operators who are not paying into the system, right? If you can't cope with it, just force it out. That seems to be the MO here.
Look at the Class A airway going from Southampton to Jersey as an example - it is often empty at say FL35-FL55 but you need a $20,000 IR to enter that piece of airspace.
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Heathrow - There are the helicopter routes over the Thames and then there's a SVFR clearance over Ascot, right? But as far as I know, there is no way of transitioning anywhere else. I could be wrong - it's been a while since I flew in London.
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2012-01-12.pdf
The biggest difference I found in NY area was that inbounds were down at 6000 feet or so still with 80 to 100 miles to run. That's obviously a bit different to the LTMA, not that it couldn't work though.
It's time to stop being so prissy about the airspace and the workload. It's not actually that bad when it comes to movements compared to many other places.
Which brings me on to... What London needs for aviation and what London gets for it's residents will be two incredibly different things. A society that respects the rights of all it's members cannot easily replicate anything that can be done in places elsewhere (ahem, China; or even the US) and this is for the good of all, despite the obvious downside.
The discussion about airspace capacity in London demonstrates all that is good about the UK. Everybody has their say and everybody has the right to an opinion. We need aviation expansion for the good of the country though, and so let's hope the best compromise is reached sooner rather than later.
And I personally think London's TMA should become B airspace and not exclude anyone.
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Well, a third runway is really going to make Heathrow a world class airport, unlike some of these:
http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/the-new-generation-of-airports/2012/08/30/b7921f54-e321-11e1-ae7f-d2a13e249eb2_story.html?goback=%2Egde_60803_member_157736898
OTB
http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/the-new-generation-of-airports/2012/08/30/b7921f54-e321-11e1-ae7f-d2a13e249eb2_story.html?goback=%2Egde_60803_member_157736898
OTB
More than just an ATCO
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Bring back "Tunnels In The Sky" anyone?
There was a model of the airspace at Farnborough back in the 1990s. Lots of little plastic tubes looking like a Gordian Knot.I was stood looking at it with an American friend, when the NATS person we had been talking to rushed off to greet some visiting Arab.
i"We used that acronym in "Nam" my American friend said. "Stood for Collosal Cluster F***k"
Not a lot had changed I think.
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I think it was Central Control Function, Lon,
Worked splendidly until someone mentioned Cbs with TSGR. Then it went tits-up, and pear-shaped, very quickly.
Worked splendidly until someone mentioned Cbs with TSGR. Then it went tits-up, and pear-shaped, very quickly.
More than just an ATCO
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It wasn't my mess Zooker. We would just have had to contend with the extra workload it would dump on adjacent Centres.
We studied part of it on a Safety Evaluation Course. It was a large number of mid-airs waiting to happen.
We studied part of it on a Safety Evaluation Course. It was a large number of mid-airs waiting to happen.
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I really don't know why there is all this discussion about a third runway at Heathrow because in all probability it will not happen. The greatest obstacle to it happening is the procrastination and total incompetence of the political parties in this country. The latest runway capacity study which has just been announced is not due to report until 2015 and I am sure that will be extended 6 months before it is due to report. There will then follow a "consultation " period of at least 3 years. If it is decided that yes Heathrow does need a third runway then a public enquiry will be set up and that will take another 5 years to come to a decision. If the go ahead is given then the European Court of Human Rights will probably get involved and don't forget Swampy and his chums. So as you can see quite a lot of people contributing to this thread, myself included , will be pushing up daisies long before a drop of concrete has been poured.
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With the UK government going through rounds of beaurocracy of trying to decide what to do, followed by rounds of beaurocracy of trying to do it, billions would be spent and nothing would be finished in my lifetime.
By then many developing countries would have built hundreds of airports and runways.
Just look at Crossrail as an example. At project conceived in the 1980s and is still under construction.
By then many developing countries would have built hundreds of airports and runways.
Just look at Crossrail as an example. At project conceived in the 1980s and is still under construction.
