Nats atcos to spain?

[Daermon ATC]

Hi there,

as you may know, the company FerroNats (joint venture between Ferrovial and Nats) was awarded the opportunity to provide atc services at 10 different towers (no app/aps) in Spain. Apparently now they are having trouble finding willing and/or able twr controllers here in Spain who would accept 32k euros/year as well as the draconian spanish laws regarding atcos.

I've come across a rumor stating that Nats is trying to relocate some of their own twr staff to Spain, apparently on a temporary basis while they tighten the screws on the roughly 150 trainees who have paid 50k euros for an atco student licence and now balk at these conditions.

I'm grading this rumor as relatively low probability since Nats would have to offer any of their staff a hefty bonus to convince them to move for a year (?) to Spain, never mind explain them how they are going to handle possible fines of 4,5 Million euros... to an individual atco, not the company. Also this would not really solve the problem, just delay its resolution... although given that FerroNats was only awarded a five year contract (+1 year possible extension), perhaps that could be also an aim.

In any case, has any of you heard about it?

[Defruiter]

Yes, that is correct.

[Me Me Me Me]

I think those going over could be considered 'change management'

NATS has had staff based in Spain for a number of years - not related to FerroNATS but working on other projects. Sending staff overseas for short terms is no big deal and quite common.

[WorkInProgress]

Apparently NATS only won 2 out of the 10 towers.

[throw a dyce]

I thought the contract was for 13 towers.FerroNats got 10 and Saerco 3.

[WorkInProgress]

I'm sure it was for 10 and NATS won 2? I heard that serco weren't invited back to the final stage of the bid because there package wasn't up to much. Don't know who won the other 8 contracts though?

[eglnyt]

The first tranche was for 13 towers. 10 of those went to FerroNATS (Alicante, Valencia, Ibiza, Sabadell, Sevilla, Jerez, Melilla, Madrid Cuatro Vientos, Vigo and A Coruña), the other 3 (Lanzarote, Fuerteventura and La Palma) went to Saerco (not to be confused with Serco).

[WorkInProgress]

Fair play, i stand corrected.

[radarman]

Daermon,

Quote: never mind explain them how they are going to handle possible fines of 4,5 Million euros... to an individual atco.

NATS will have no intention of explaining this to any UK volunteers. Nor will they enlighten them about the completely different legal system (Napoleonic code) they will become involved with should there be an incident or accident.

I hear the GM at Gibraltar is spending alot of time in Spain trying to get the new system up and running. That should ruffle a few feathers!

[mts1]

"...150 trainees who have paid 50k euros for an atco student licence..."

Since when do NATS trainees have to pay 50k for their licence?

[Sonnendec]

"...150 trainees who have paid 50k euros for an atco student licence..."

Since when do NATS trainees have to pay 50k for their licence?

He´s talking about the 150 spanish trainees nowadays unemployed.

[Dan Dare]

We've seen the flying industry rot from pay-to-fly. Now we're going for pay-to-control? Surely that will never work? Airlines got away with bank-balance selection to an extent, but there are two people in the cockpit and even if P2F halves safety levels it would still be so safe that trends would be difficult to spot. There is only one ATCO on frequency. The ATCO is either necessary and needs to be of a calibre and expreience level to keep things safe or any monkey could do it with pay in peanuts. Many will hope it is the latter, but this could turn out to be a tragic and expensive experiment.

I foresee a lot of learning (=incidents) over the next few years while this settles down, but if it is seen as a success you can be sure it will repeated elsewhere

[chevvron]

Don't forget the Spanish Authority originally wanted to use FISOs rather than ATCOs; they presumably would be paid monkey nuts rather than peanuts.

[radarman]

Does FerroNats intend their ten towers to be staffed entirely by the new trainees, experience level Nil? Can you imagine Valencia at the height of the tourist season? Recipe for certain disaster.

[161R]

Code:

Does FerroNats intend

"Intend" implies planning. NATS and planning are not a combination frequently seen in the same sentence, let alone anywhere else.

So probably, yes!

[chevvron]

They'll probably have to speak 'ICAO level 4 Spanish'.

[5milesbaby]

Think I read that speaking Spanish was necessary! Believe NATS were going to help fund a language course for those that didn't quite manage the requirement

[radarman]

They'll probably have to speak 'ICAO level 4 Spanish'.

My information is that the guy who certified them as Level 4 is a NATS employee whose first language is English, and who has a vested interest in seeing this FerroNats project come to a successful conclusion.

[Daermon ATC]

Originally Posted by chevvron

They'll probably have to speak 'ICAO level 4 Spanish'.

Nope, not really. Spanish law allows for non-spanish speaking controllers on towers with lots of international flights... but exactly what "lots" means has been never defined so I'd say that "once a month" will be considered enough.
It's nice when yout company is also the government... you can ask them to tweak the laws as you need them.

Originally Posted by dan dare

Many will hope it is the latter, but this could turn out to be a tragic and expensive experiment.

47 class A incidents in Spain in 2010... bless TCAS


Thanks to all who answered my question... I must admitt that I'm a little surprised though. Not for the part of doing a job in another country for a few years (I worked for an international financial company prior to becoming atc) but rather because I'd think spanish law to which these controllers would be subject is ... 4th world?

I can clarify if needed, either here or on a private message... just let me post the 2 main laws (+1 modification) spanish atcos must obey:

Ley 21/2003
Ley 9/2010
Ley 1/2011 (modifies the first one. Check item 16 and 20 specially... there you can read a range of new infractions that will yield you a definitive loss of atco licence and a fine from 250.001€ to 4.500.000€ ... and no, I didn't make any mistake with the zeros...)


Want to come to Spain? You are welcome!
Can I have your former post at.... wherever?

[Lssar]

There you go:

«2. Cuando las infracciones fueran cometidas por las entidades colaboradoras de inspección, las compañías que realicen transporte aéreo comercial, las organizaciones de diseño, fabricación o mantenimiento de aeronaves, los proveedores de servicios de navegación aérea, los agentes de servicios aeroportuarios, los gestores de aeropuertos, aeródromos o instalaciones aeroportuarias y, en general, las personas físicas o jurídicas que desarrollen actividades incluidas en el ámbito de aplicación de esta ley con carácter comercial o que las realicen a cambio de una contraprestación económica no salarial las sanciones aplicables serán las siguientes:

a) Para las infracciones leves, apercibimiento o multa de 4.500 hasta 70.000 euros.
b) Para las infracciones graves, multa de 70.001 a 250.000 euros.
c) Para las infracciones muy graves, multa de 250.001 a 4.500.000 euros.»