Happy ATCOs ?
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Happy ATCOs ?
How many ATCOs would be happy to fly as passenger in an airliner that flew IMC in uncontrolled airspace anywhere in Europe ?
Just interested in an ATCO's view on this as they see things from a different perspective than us pilots.
Just interested in an ATCO's view on this as they see things from a different perspective than us pilots.
No snags. As an ex-LATCC(Mil) controller I've seen it done dozens of times per day. Even if the conditions were 8/8 VFR the pilots, more often than not, would only accept Deconfliction Service.
(Any current LATCC(Mil) controllers care to comment on the estimate of 50% of the traffic worked on the east side of the UK being off-route civil?)
(Any current LATCC(Mil) controllers care to comment on the estimate of 50% of the traffic worked on the east side of the UK being off-route civil?)
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Seems like all you guys would be happy only if a radar service is available.
Would you still be happy with no radar ?
Would you still be happy with no radar ?
Last edited by Cruise Zombie; 8th Nov 2011 at 13:55.
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Seems like all you guys would be happy only if a radar service is available.
Would you still be happy with no radar ?
Would you still be happy with no radar ?
Come on, CZ, come clean. where was it and what happened?
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Sorry OrgAsMic, my agenda is not with you guys, or the UK. However if ATCO's are unhappy to fly IMC in uncontrolled airspace with no radar cover, it may help a colleague's 'situation' shall we say.
Would ATCO's feel that just following IFR procedures in such circumstances would not be a water-tight method of separation ?
Would ATCO's feel that just following IFR procedures in such circumstances would not be a water-tight method of separation ?
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How many ATCOs would be happy to fly as passenger in an airliner that flew IMC in uncontrolled airspace anywhere in Europe ?
No problem! I have made hundreds of duty and leisure flights as a PAX over the years in class F and G airspace! (mostly in Scottish H & I area) Perhaps some of them in IMC and at night in the winter were not such fun - more WX related than an airspace issue!
No problem! I have made hundreds of duty and leisure flights as a PAX over the years in class F and G airspace! (mostly in Scottish H & I area) Perhaps some of them in IMC and at night in the winter were not such fun - more WX related than an airspace issue!
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from The Goon Show, June 1957:
Milligan:
Little did he know, poor fellow, that in a shed off Lisle Street, a genius in grease stained evening dress, assisted by a dour Scots gentleman in a...
grease stained body, were at work on a strange and wonderous, grease stained machine...
Seagoon & McChisholm:
[in time with hammering] Ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong-iddle-i-pohhhh. Ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong-iddle-i-pohhhh. Ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong-iddle-i-pohhhh. Ying tong yi...
Seagoon:
McChisholm! It's finished!
Seagoon:
Now, my masterpiece! This... apparatus!
McChisholm:
Ohhh! If it's no a rude question, sir, what's it supposed to be?
Seagoon:
I wish I knew... I'd feel much happier.
McChisholm:
Yuh-you said it was to be a mangle.
Seagoon:
Yes, I know. But I added a bit here and a bit there, and it got completely out of hand.
McChisholm:
I-I'll tell you what, man. You sit in the seat, and I'll swing the propeller.
Seagoon:
[camp] Mad, impulsive boy. Ohhohoh! But, as you wish...
McChisholm:
[shouting] CONTACT!
Seagoon:
Gad, you've invented the method for starting an aeroplane! CONTACT!
FX:
[plane engine starting, a few misfires, backfires. It stalls, followed by lots of bits falling off]
Seagoon:
Well, what shall we build now?
McChisholm:
Ah, M-mister Seagoon! Did you no notice? A moment before it fell to bits, it rose seven feet off the ground!
Seagoon:
Correction, five feet. Two of those feet were mine!
McChisholm:
If, if you ask me, sir, we've invented the hairyplane.
FX:
[phone rings, receiver being picked up]
Seagoon:
Hello?
Grytpype-Thynne:
[speaking over telephone] I hear you've invented the aeroplane.
Seagoon:
Who's this speaking?
Grytpype-Thynne:
The Air Ministry.
Seagoon:
Air Ministry? How are you off for air? Ahahahaha! [chuckling] Air Ministry! How are you off for air?! Ahahahaha! Ahahaha! Aha. Ahem.
Grytpype-Thynne:
Listen, little square pudding: the question is, how are you off for air?
Seagoon:
What-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what? [degenerates into a clucking chicken]
Grytpype-Thynne:
It's all very well saying that Neddie, but if you've in... if you've invented the aeroplane, you'll need air to fly it in -- and we are the sole agents.
And so was invented the CAA (Who HD went on to work for).
A venerable colleague of HD's, Mr Davd Gunson, recorded the following:
David Gunson "What goes up might come down" From 1981, Former air traffic contoler tells us how to fly a plane. maddog77 on USTREAM. Birds
To cut a long story short, (but it is worth listening to even if you've heard it before), he summed it up nicely by saying:
In the early days, aircraft could fly unhindered from A to B, the CAA decided that the possibilities of a collision were mathematically remote so they introduced airways, forcing all the aeroplanes into corridors 5 miles wide therefore justifying the job of Air Traffic Controllers.
Milligan:
Little did he know, poor fellow, that in a shed off Lisle Street, a genius in grease stained evening dress, assisted by a dour Scots gentleman in a...
grease stained body, were at work on a strange and wonderous, grease stained machine...
Seagoon & McChisholm:
[in time with hammering] Ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong-iddle-i-pohhhh. Ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong-iddle-i-pohhhh. Ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong, ying tong-iddle-i-pohhhh. Ying tong yi...
Seagoon:
McChisholm! It's finished!
Seagoon:
Now, my masterpiece! This... apparatus!
McChisholm:
Ohhh! If it's no a rude question, sir, what's it supposed to be?
Seagoon:
I wish I knew... I'd feel much happier.
McChisholm:
Yuh-you said it was to be a mangle.
Seagoon:
Yes, I know. But I added a bit here and a bit there, and it got completely out of hand.
McChisholm:
I-I'll tell you what, man. You sit in the seat, and I'll swing the propeller.
Seagoon:
[camp] Mad, impulsive boy. Ohhohoh! But, as you wish...
McChisholm:
[shouting] CONTACT!
Seagoon:
Gad, you've invented the method for starting an aeroplane! CONTACT!
FX:
[plane engine starting, a few misfires, backfires. It stalls, followed by lots of bits falling off]
Seagoon:
Well, what shall we build now?
McChisholm:
Ah, M-mister Seagoon! Did you no notice? A moment before it fell to bits, it rose seven feet off the ground!
Seagoon:
Correction, five feet. Two of those feet were mine!
McChisholm:
If, if you ask me, sir, we've invented the hairyplane.
FX:
[phone rings, receiver being picked up]
Seagoon:
Hello?
Grytpype-Thynne:
[speaking over telephone] I hear you've invented the aeroplane.
Seagoon:
Who's this speaking?
Grytpype-Thynne:
The Air Ministry.
Seagoon:
Air Ministry? How are you off for air? Ahahahaha! [chuckling] Air Ministry! How are you off for air?! Ahahahaha! Ahahaha! Aha. Ahem.
Grytpype-Thynne:
Listen, little square pudding: the question is, how are you off for air?
Seagoon:
What-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what-what? [degenerates into a clucking chicken]
Grytpype-Thynne:
It's all very well saying that Neddie, but if you've in... if you've invented the aeroplane, you'll need air to fly it in -- and we are the sole agents.
And so was invented the CAA (Who HD went on to work for).
A venerable colleague of HD's, Mr Davd Gunson, recorded the following:
David Gunson "What goes up might come down" From 1981, Former air traffic contoler tells us how to fly a plane. maddog77 on USTREAM. Birds
To cut a long story short, (but it is worth listening to even if you've heard it before), he summed it up nicely by saying:
In the early days, aircraft could fly unhindered from A to B, the CAA decided that the possibilities of a collision were mathematically remote so they introduced airways, forcing all the aeroplanes into corridors 5 miles wide therefore justifying the job of Air Traffic Controllers.
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Sir Hudson Fysh, founder of QANTAS, once said something like.... Railways have one or two lines feeding several platforms. Aviation proposes many routes all feeding into one runway; you don't stand a chance.
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Just me or more aircraft? If its just me sitting in an aircraft in a certain portion of airspace, i'd say ok. If there's a second aircraft in this same portion of airspace, and the pilots have no chance to establish visual contact I would never set a foot on board. Uncontrolled airspace is for VFR, period!
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From a pilots point of view its when it gets VMC that issues arise not IMC without radar.
IMC everyone is usually a pro or know what they are doing. And all will be talking to someone and have a transponder.
Its when its VMC that all the puddle jumpers are out flying VFR through the instrument approaches that things can get abit close for comfort.
The only two close calls I have had have been under a radar service and one of them was inside controlled airspace and in VMC.
Banging around the highlands of scotland under a procedural service or under radar cover with so many qualifiers we might as well have had a basic service not a problem. And when your VMC personally I always prefered to go VFR because then it meant we had two pairs of eyes outside and it allowed the procedural controller more scope for shifting traffic and there was no confusion about who was doing the seperation.
IMC everyone is usually a pro or know what they are doing. And all will be talking to someone and have a transponder.
Its when its VMC that all the puddle jumpers are out flying VFR through the instrument approaches that things can get abit close for comfort.
The only two close calls I have had have been under a radar service and one of them was inside controlled airspace and in VMC.
Banging around the highlands of scotland under a procedural service or under radar cover with so many qualifiers we might as well have had a basic service not a problem. And when your VMC personally I always prefered to go VFR because then it meant we had two pairs of eyes outside and it allowed the procedural controller more scope for shifting traffic and there was no confusion about who was doing the seperation.
I wonder how many pilots of aircraft flying in uncontrolled airspace know what separation criteria to use, how to establish same, and how to co-ordinate this with the pilots of any other aircraft that might be in the vicinity.
The only times "loss of separation" incidents occur (or rather, are reported) outside controlled airspace seem to be when TCAS has "saved the day".
When there is no conflicting traffic, I'm happy as, and have flown many times IFR as a pax in such situations in the past. Outside controlled airspace, and beyond radar coverage.
Of course, slightly different situation in the Antipodes, I guess.
The only times "loss of separation" incidents occur (or rather, are reported) outside controlled airspace seem to be when TCAS has "saved the day".
When there is no conflicting traffic, I'm happy as, and have flown many times IFR as a pax in such situations in the past. Outside controlled airspace, and beyond radar coverage.
Of course, slightly different situation in the Antipodes, I guess.
