Mid-life crisis ATCO needs help!
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Mid-life crisis ATCO needs help!
Guys and girls,
In the style of a classifieds advert
"UK Area valid, top-payscale ATCO, instructor etc etc, seeks to leave the UK behind and become a one-trick pony somewhere else in the big, wide world, where the Exchequer cant get me and rape me for nearing 50% of my hard-earned dollar. All climates considered, but must be FUN PLACE FOR YOUNG FAMILY TO LIVE. GSOH!!".
That about sums it up I think, but on a serious note, without wanting to dredge up old threads, I wondered if any of you UAE ACC guys out there could bring me up to date on a few things.
Previous threads have alluded to a less-than ideal working atmosphere and a distinct lack of management direction, creaking kit and broken promises regarding the T&Cs for the area guys. Is that still the case? (hold on a mo....sounds familiar!!)
Is anyone actually prepared to spell out (even circa) how much a valid ATCO, OJTI etc could expect to reach their pocket (incl. shift allowances, unsociable hours, OJTI extras) as rumours abound, but are never a reliable source to base a life-changing career move on? (on our shop floor, the DXB Approach "rumours" were £8-9k pcm....reliable or not?)
Also, a lot has been said over the months about the widening gap between rentals for family-friendly villas, and the amount subsidised. Is this still the case, as I hear that rentals are supposed to have fallen somewhat in the UAE?
Judging by the mini-exodus of NATS Approach controllers from Middlesex International to sunnier climbs, things must be pretty appealing still out there even in these trying times, but that is to DXB, so just wondered what sort of career-move an ACC ATCO, multi(9+)years valid with all the belts and braces attached (OJTI etc etc) could expect at this moment in time.
Am seriously thinking about jumping overboard from the good ship NATS, but with a Union with new-found bite behind us, decent £££ employer pension contributions each month paid for me and let's face it, a generous annual leave entitlement......(quick, before I start selling the package back to myself).......it is the UK that I have the issue with, and to be more specific the cost of living here.
I am under no illusions that there may be a bit of "grass being greener" going on here, but to avoid forever being just curious, I am getting ever closer to taking the plunge. Being a notoriously poor gambler, I need to be sure that this gamble would pay off long-term.
Cheers people.
In the style of a classifieds advert
"UK Area valid, top-payscale ATCO, instructor etc etc, seeks to leave the UK behind and become a one-trick pony somewhere else in the big, wide world, where the Exchequer cant get me and rape me for nearing 50% of my hard-earned dollar. All climates considered, but must be FUN PLACE FOR YOUNG FAMILY TO LIVE. GSOH!!".
That about sums it up I think, but on a serious note, without wanting to dredge up old threads, I wondered if any of you UAE ACC guys out there could bring me up to date on a few things.
Previous threads have alluded to a less-than ideal working atmosphere and a distinct lack of management direction, creaking kit and broken promises regarding the T&Cs for the area guys. Is that still the case? (hold on a mo....sounds familiar!!)
Is anyone actually prepared to spell out (even circa) how much a valid ATCO, OJTI etc could expect to reach their pocket (incl. shift allowances, unsociable hours, OJTI extras) as rumours abound, but are never a reliable source to base a life-changing career move on? (on our shop floor, the DXB Approach "rumours" were £8-9k pcm....reliable or not?)
Also, a lot has been said over the months about the widening gap between rentals for family-friendly villas, and the amount subsidised. Is this still the case, as I hear that rentals are supposed to have fallen somewhat in the UAE?
Judging by the mini-exodus of NATS Approach controllers from Middlesex International to sunnier climbs, things must be pretty appealing still out there even in these trying times, but that is to DXB, so just wondered what sort of career-move an ACC ATCO, multi(9+)years valid with all the belts and braces attached (OJTI etc etc) could expect at this moment in time.
Am seriously thinking about jumping overboard from the good ship NATS, but with a Union with new-found bite behind us, decent £££ employer pension contributions each month paid for me and let's face it, a generous annual leave entitlement......(quick, before I start selling the package back to myself).......it is the UK that I have the issue with, and to be more specific the cost of living here.
I am under no illusions that there may be a bit of "grass being greener" going on here, but to avoid forever being just curious, I am getting ever closer to taking the plunge. Being a notoriously poor gambler, I need to be sure that this gamble would pay off long-term.
Cheers people.
Last edited by TCASClimb; 19th Apr 2011 at 05:33. Reason: Changed sections of entry
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In response to your post...no idea. As an aside...what are prices like for Donkey Jackets down South? Army and Navy in Glasgow are having a sale right now but I suspect prices may rise in the next few weeks along with braziers and firelighters!
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I did it the other way round - started in the sand pit and came home to Heathrow. Grass always seems to be greener on the other side but I wouldn't touch the places you've mentioned - heck, just look at the political situation. It could blow at any time.... and you want that for your wife and kids?
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HD, that's your opinion and (IMHO), poorly informed. I live it in the UAE. Every place has it's problems but I don't feel like my family are threatened one little bit. I was almost put off by some of the comments on other threads but haven't regretted the move one little bit.
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Agree with you in principle. The UAE is one of the safest places in the world. However, the times are changing and the Arabic world is undergoing a fundamental change. Two dissidents (seekers for democratic reform) were recently locked up in Sharjah and both Bahrein and Oman have not been immune from the changes.
Having said that I would have no qualms about relocating to the UAE, the locals are good folk, the money is on the better side of good and although the summer weather can be extreme the winters are sublime.
ACC ATCO salary is circa $15500 per month no tax, cars are 1/3rd less than in the UK, beer is readily available and cheap. Schools relatively expensive.
My advice to TCASClimb would be to take the opportunity but for him to have an escape route should he so need it. i.e. don't burn your bridges on leaving your present employer (NATS), ensure that you have a reasonable chance to return and good luck.
Cheers
Agree with you in principle. The UAE is one of the safest places in the world. However, the times are changing and the Arabic world is undergoing a fundamental change. Two dissidents (seekers for democratic reform) were recently locked up in Sharjah and both Bahrein and Oman have not been immune from the changes.
Having said that I would have no qualms about relocating to the UAE, the locals are good folk, the money is on the better side of good and although the summer weather can be extreme the winters are sublime.
ACC ATCO salary is circa $15500 per month no tax, cars are 1/3rd less than in the UK, beer is readily available and cheap. Schools relatively expensive.
My advice to TCASClimb would be to take the opportunity but for him to have an escape route should he so need it. i.e. don't burn your bridges on leaving your present employer (NATS), ensure that you have a reasonable chance to return and good luck.
Cheers
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I fully accept the last views as I have no experience of those places. We lived in Libya and it was like going to Heaven... until Mr G took over. People who we considered to be very good friends suddenly hated us, as a result of his rhetoric. Some of my colleagues went to Bahrain - amazing place. Look at those places now - hell on earth.
I was just warning you but I wish you all the luck in the world. I'm just glad I did it the other way round.
I was just warning you but I wish you all the luck in the world. I'm just glad I did it the other way round.
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TCASClimb,
If you've got as far as asking your question here on Prune, then I think you know what to do. - Just do it.
I did 40 years ago and never regretted it for one minute. In fact, the years I spent overseas we regarded as a working holiday. There is one small drawback and that is that once you get a taste for that sort of life it is very difficult to return to the "normality" of the UK.
With only an Area ticket, you have narrowed your choices to Bahrain, Abu Dhabi or Muscat in the Gulf region. However, places like Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa occasionally recruit experienced overseas ATCOs. You may even see an advert for Hong Kong before they move to their new centre.
If it was me just starting out on the overseas path, I would probably look at Muscat, which seems to be the most "civilised" part of the Gulf, at the moment.
Wherever you choose, the best of luck, I'm sure you won't regret it.
On the beach
If you've got as far as asking your question here on Prune, then I think you know what to do. - Just do it.
I did 40 years ago and never regretted it for one minute. In fact, the years I spent overseas we regarded as a working holiday. There is one small drawback and that is that once you get a taste for that sort of life it is very difficult to return to the "normality" of the UK.
With only an Area ticket, you have narrowed your choices to Bahrain, Abu Dhabi or Muscat in the Gulf region. However, places like Australia, New Zealand, Canada and South Africa occasionally recruit experienced overseas ATCOs. You may even see an advert for Hong Kong before they move to their new centre.
If it was me just starting out on the overseas path, I would probably look at Muscat, which seems to be the most "civilised" part of the Gulf, at the moment.
Wherever you choose, the best of luck, I'm sure you won't regret it.
On the beach
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TCAS, I think the biggest issue with leaving NATS and the UK is how to fund your pension.
I just looked at my pay advice and NATS contributed £2493.57 last month.
I am too old to consider the move but would be interested to hear how those of you in the Middle East plan for retirement.
Also, from what I have read and heard, the shifts worked are nothing like our SCRATCOH compliant NATS rosters.
I just looked at my pay advice and NATS contributed £2493.57 last month.
I am too old to consider the move but would be interested to hear how those of you in the Middle East plan for retirement.
Also, from what I have read and heard, the shifts worked are nothing like our SCRATCOH compliant NATS rosters.
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Yep, that's the big Q.
Serco have a scheme and GCAA have not a lot on that score. Essentially you lay yourself open to the financial markets. The rules have recently changed with respect to the UK State pension in that one doesn't have to have 46 years of subscription to the scheme, now somewhere in the 30 yr band and payable by Class 3 subscripts. Also, once overseas for over a year and with declared non residency status you are no longer eligible for the NHS. N.B. If you are involved in a medical emergency while on a visit to the UK the NHS is obligated to treat you. (Bonus!)
If TCASClimb has sufficient years in NATS he has several pension options open to him but I would suggest the use of a good accountant/actuary before taking the jump but not many accounts/actuaries would be aware of the implications of working overseas.
Personally, having left NATS, and gone down the route I would expect to accumulate more in total by working overseas. The UAE has a cut off enforced retirement age of 58 yrs at the ACC whilst in Bahrain the cut off is 60 yrs.
The NATS pension scheme is a very effective Golden Handcuffs but, then again, the thought of doing the same old two/three sectors at an ACC 'til the end of one's days is a bit grim!
With due respect to HD where having one's whole career at EGLL, excluding the transfer to EGTT, the same questions would not arise. It would be marvelous to both start and finish at EGLL. No need to go anywhere else.
Cheers
P.S. HD, the Benjamin Button of ATC, excellent career path
the biggest issue with leaving NATS and the UK is how to fund your pension.
Serco have a scheme and GCAA have not a lot on that score. Essentially you lay yourself open to the financial markets. The rules have recently changed with respect to the UK State pension in that one doesn't have to have 46 years of subscription to the scheme, now somewhere in the 30 yr band and payable by Class 3 subscripts. Also, once overseas for over a year and with declared non residency status you are no longer eligible for the NHS. N.B. If you are involved in a medical emergency while on a visit to the UK the NHS is obligated to treat you. (Bonus!)
If TCASClimb has sufficient years in NATS he has several pension options open to him but I would suggest the use of a good accountant/actuary before taking the jump but not many accounts/actuaries would be aware of the implications of working overseas.
Personally, having left NATS, and gone down the route I would expect to accumulate more in total by working overseas. The UAE has a cut off enforced retirement age of 58 yrs at the ACC whilst in Bahrain the cut off is 60 yrs.
The NATS pension scheme is a very effective Golden Handcuffs but, then again, the thought of doing the same old two/three sectors at an ACC 'til the end of one's days is a bit grim!
With due respect to HD where having one's whole career at EGLL, excluding the transfer to EGTT, the same questions would not arise. It would be marvelous to both start and finish at EGLL. No need to go anywhere else.
Cheers
P.S. HD, the Benjamin Button of ATC, excellent career path
Last edited by Vercingetorix; 19th Apr 2011 at 10:10.
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<<With due respect to HD where having one's whole career at EGLL, excluding the transfer to EGTT>>
Oh that it had been - then I'd never have gone abroad! It actually went something like EGLK, HLLT (TWR, APP, Area, FIS), EGTK, EGLL (including TC at WD).
We did the HLLT bit when we were young and loved it. Got a bit tiring being shot at and being chucked in prison though... I also got involved in a major air accident and that was NOT fun. 12 months at TK gave me more grey hairs than anywhere else but, in the end, I achieved my ambition - to work at 'LL. If one achieves one's ambition and total happiness in one's work, that's all that matters.
Oh that it had been - then I'd never have gone abroad! It actually went something like EGLK, HLLT (TWR, APP, Area, FIS), EGTK, EGLL (including TC at WD).
We did the HLLT bit when we were young and loved it. Got a bit tiring being shot at and being chucked in prison though... I also got involved in a major air accident and that was NOT fun. 12 months at TK gave me more grey hairs than anywhere else but, in the end, I achieved my ambition - to work at 'LL. If one achieves one's ambition and total happiness in one's work, that's all that matters.
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Hell on Earth?
HD don't believe everything you see on the 
box. and in the press. The foreign press reporting on the Bahrain situation was so far from reality it was embarassing to see and read.
There is no such thing as a SQUARE roundabout.
I am living in your so called hell, sitting on the beach having a coldie and a BBQ. There is military presence in most areas, but if you stay away from the known trouble spots you have no problems. Same as you do in any city me thinks.
Verci...... sorry but you are wrong about Bahrain, one 62, one 60 and two 60 this year, all going strong.
TCASClimb.... I am about to go off on 18 days leave, stiil 38 left of the annual 56 days which stretches to 72 with days off. We are about to go to the MMAANNSOOO roster, all 8 hour shifts. PM me for Bahrain contact details. We have had 4 new arrivals in the last month. We need extra staff as traffing levels continue to rise. For school reasons and retirement there are 3 leaving this summer, all decided before the trouble, so there are more jobs on offer soon.
There is a young ex NATS guy here so he can fill you in on "LIVING in HELL", if he can the time as he is so busy enjoying himself.
My advise is take the plunge. Hooroo I live on the beach so it is swim and coldie time and pork for dinner. Sure is tough here in HELL.
box. and in the press. The foreign press reporting on the Bahrain situation was so far from reality it was embarassing to see and read.There is no such thing as a SQUARE
roundabout.I am living in your so called hell, sitting on the beach having a coldie and a BBQ. There is military presence in most areas, but if you stay away from the known trouble spots you have no problems. Same as you do in any city me thinks.
Verci...... sorry but you are wrong about Bahrain, one 62, one 60 and two 60 this year, all going strong.
TCASClimb.... I am about to go off on 18 days leave, stiil 38 left of the annual 56 days which stretches to 72 with days off. We are about to go to the MMAANNSOOO roster, all 8 hour shifts. PM me for Bahrain contact details. We have had 4 new arrivals in the last month. We need extra staff as traffing levels continue to rise. For school reasons and retirement there are 3 leaving this summer, all decided before the trouble, so there are more jobs on offer soon.
There is a young ex NATS guy here so he can fill you in on "LIVING in HELL", if he can the time as he is so busy enjoying himself.
My advise is take the plunge. Hooroo I live on the beach so it is swim and coldie time and pork for dinner. Sure is tough here in HELL.
Last edited by Rule3; 19th Apr 2011 at 11:30. Reason: Spelling
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I see Australia are advertising for experienced TMA, Tower and En-route controllers here:
CANSO - Transforming Global ATM Performance
It says you have to be either an Aussie or a Kiwi, but if you have the necessary qualifications and experience, I can't see them turning you down.
On the beach
CANSO - Transforming Global ATM Performance
It says you have to be either an Aussie or a Kiwi, but if you have the necessary qualifications and experience, I can't see them turning you down.
On the beach
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Hell on earth
Bahrain, hell on earth?? I concur with the posts above. Real hell is deciding which beer or cooling drink to have and what you are going to throw on the barbie. Now what will I eat today? steak, lobster, pork ribs or all three, dilema, dilema.........
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5milesbaby, really appreciate the informed PM and the valuable information therein. Every point you make echoes my sentiments exactly. Check your PM!
Cheers to everyone else who has responded. All appreciated info and advice. Maybe see some of you in the sandpit sometime soon???
Cheers to everyone else who has responded. All appreciated info and advice. Maybe see some of you in the sandpit sometime soon???
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With a young family, Australia should feature high on the list. Forget Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra - go for Cairns, Townsville, Perth, Adelaide or anywhere else on the rather huge coastline. Just as an example in education, Adelaide, with a population of a little over 1 million, has four Universities.
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With a young family I can thoroughly recommend the UAE. It a very safe environment generally, especially for kids. The standard of living is high and fortunately my employer pays a housing allowance and schooling allowance for 2 children.
As for loss of NATS pension, yes that is a consideration. However, there are options including transferring to a Qualified Offshore Pension Scheme (QROPS) which gives greater flexibility on investment options (and typically greater returns) and is, of course, tax free. The only stipulation is that you need to be intending to stay off-shore for 5 years.
As for loss of NATS pension, yes that is a consideration. However, there are options including transferring to a Qualified Offshore Pension Scheme (QROPS) which gives greater flexibility on investment options (and typically greater returns) and is, of course, tax free. The only stipulation is that you need to be intending to stay off-shore for 5 years.
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HD,
The UAE is, in my opinion, considerably safer than most European cities - certainly the fair few that I've visited. There are a few incidents that take place, but the amount of crime considering the population count is very low. People here leave bikes, etc, unsecured in car ports and they don't go missing. There is no 'nuisance youth' problem as there is back in the UK and the family don't feel at all intimidated strolling the streets at night.
In terms of political issues, the UAE is probably the most stable environment in the Middle East. There have been no visible protests (at least none that I've seen).
All in all it's a great place to live, although best to escape for the peak of the summer if possible.
The UAE is, in my opinion, considerably safer than most European cities - certainly the fair few that I've visited. There are a few incidents that take place, but the amount of crime considering the population count is very low. People here leave bikes, etc, unsecured in car ports and they don't go missing. There is no 'nuisance youth' problem as there is back in the UK and the family don't feel at all intimidated strolling the streets at night.
In terms of political issues, the UAE is probably the most stable environment in the Middle East. There have been no visible protests (at least none that I've seen).
All in all it's a great place to live, although best to escape for the peak of the summer if possible.
