Question re IFR procedures at Southampton
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Question re IFR procedures at Southampton
Hi all,
I hope this is the right place to ask. Being from Germany, where no IFR flying is allowed in Class G airspace, I sometimes have difficulties grasping UK procedures around transitioning from IFR flight in Class G to Class A and vice versa. I'm flying a single engine turbocharged piston, so I would want to climb into the flight levels as soon as possible.
My question is: How would an IFR departure out of Southampton with a destination in Germany normally work? For one thing, I would need an airways clearance for the long distance. For another, I don't think I could avoid crossing Class G on the way up into Class A. So, would I get the airways clearance on the ground? What's the local procedure?
Thanks a lot!
Thomas
I hope this is the right place to ask. Being from Germany, where no IFR flying is allowed in Class G airspace, I sometimes have difficulties grasping UK procedures around transitioning from IFR flight in Class G to Class A and vice versa. I'm flying a single engine turbocharged piston, so I would want to climb into the flight levels as soon as possible.
My question is: How would an IFR departure out of Southampton with a destination in Germany normally work? For one thing, I would need an airways clearance for the long distance. For another, I don't think I could avoid crossing Class G on the way up into Class A. So, would I get the airways clearance on the ground? What's the local procedure?
Thanks a lot!
Thomas
thborchert
If you wish to remain within controlled airspace (Class D or A in London FIR),
Southampton is within controlled airspace (Class D) this joins with Class A airspace.
See attached link for outbound routings, GWC can be expected as your first waypoint.
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2010-11-18.pdf
If you are unpressurised and unable to cruise above FL100, expect a southeast routing to go south of Gatwick.
You should expect to climb at your best rate until passing FL55, thereafter you are into Class A airspace.
ATC at Southampton/Solent are very good. If they see that your rate of climb is low and may result in you leaving controlled airspace before reaching FL55, they will give you an extended routing to ensure that you remain inside.
I would suggest that if you cannot acheive an intial rate of climb 1000 FPM or greater, tell ATC. This will assist them with determining a routing that will ensure that you remain inside controlled airspace.
If you wish to route under Class A airspace after leaving the Solent CTA plan to route GWC-SFD remaining below the London and Worthing CTAs. An FIS service is available from London (124.750/124.600). This may require a maximum cruising level of FL50.
If you wish to remain within controlled airspace (Class D or A in London FIR),
Southampton is within controlled airspace (Class D) this joins with Class A airspace.
See attached link for outbound routings, GWC can be expected as your first waypoint.
http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2010-11-18.pdf
If you are unpressurised and unable to cruise above FL100, expect a southeast routing to go south of Gatwick.
You should expect to climb at your best rate until passing FL55, thereafter you are into Class A airspace.
ATC at Southampton/Solent are very good. If they see that your rate of climb is low and may result in you leaving controlled airspace before reaching FL55, they will give you an extended routing to ensure that you remain inside.
I would suggest that if you cannot acheive an intial rate of climb 1000 FPM or greater, tell ATC. This will assist them with determining a routing that will ensure that you remain inside controlled airspace.
If you wish to route under Class A airspace after leaving the Solent CTA plan to route GWC-SFD remaining below the London and Worthing CTAs. An FIS service is available from London (124.750/124.600). This may require a maximum cruising level of FL50.
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Thanks! I can do more than 1000 fpm, I would also want to do FL180 (unpressurized, but on oxygen - this is a Cirrus SR22 Turbo). So, if remaining in controlled airspace, I would get the clearance on the ground? Also, on approach, would ATC route me through controlled airspace or would they at some point "dump" me into Class G with some sort of service level that no one outside the UK has ever heard of? 
BOAC, by way of explanation: In most of Europe, there is no "joining the airways". You are and remain in controlled airspace during IFR flight from take-off to landing, or at least under control of ATC. The (rather nice and very handy) concept of regularly flying IFR in class G without a clearance or even radio contact, let alone a flight plan, is rather foreign to the rest of Europe. As you can see, I really like the concept for its practicality and ease of use, but I have found one really needs to know how to "work the system" if one wants to cross from class G IFR flying to "airways" flying. For example, it took me several visits to the UK to learn that requesting an "IFR clearance" won't get you anywhere with ATC. The magic words are "airways clearance". Try that phrase anywhere else in Europe and I wish you good luck...
BOAC, by way of explanation: In most of Europe, there is no "joining the airways". You are and remain in controlled airspace during IFR flight from take-off to landing, or at least under control of ATC. The (rather nice and very handy) concept of regularly flying IFR in class G without a clearance or even radio contact, let alone a flight plan, is rather foreign to the rest of Europe. As you can see, I really like the concept for its practicality and ease of use, but I have found one really needs to know how to "work the system" if one wants to cross from class G IFR flying to "airways" flying. For example, it took me several visits to the UK to learn that requesting an "IFR clearance" won't get you anywhere with ATC. The magic words are "airways clearance". Try that phrase anywhere else in Europe and I wish you good luck...
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Thomas - wie gehts. Long time since Berlin
Southampton is in class 'D' and linked to the airways system. So, the clearance you get will be:
"Cleared to (destination), via (Departure - they have published SID's), squawk ........."And you'll probably get that when you call for start, or just prior to taxi. Inbound you shouldn't get dumped into class 'G', again as the CAS is all connected.
That's it, no different to operating out of most class 'C' or 'D' airports on the continent. Now, parking, handling etc - that's a different matter
Southampton is in class 'D' and linked to the airways system. So, the clearance you get will be:
"Cleared to (destination), via (Departure - they have published SID's), squawk ........."And you'll probably get that when you call for start, or just prior to taxi. Inbound you shouldn't get dumped into class 'G', again as the CAS is all connected.
That's it, no different to operating out of most class 'C' or 'D' airports on the continent. Now, parking, handling etc - that's a different matter
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 16th Feb 2011 at 20:56.
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Radar,
Late February, early March. Date is not yet set. Probably in from northern Germany early in the morning, out in the evening. The alternative is airline service into Gatwick, which would mean spending a night (or two). Not that I would mind that, but flying by myself would be more fun.
Mr. Monster
,
Good to talk to you again. Certainly a very long time! I hope all is well. Any trips planned to the continent? I'll be leading a group through the Danish isles in June. Also, I'll be at Tannkosh, an event well worth attending. And I might just make it to the Scilly Islands for a brief holiday.
As for the fees at EGHI, from what I gather they are not too bad for British standards and comparable to Bournemouth, which would be a potential alternative. Am I wrong?
And if I am, what about Bournemouth or, for that matter, any other airfield not connected to the airways system by the appropriate airspace? How would the whole thing work there? Take off (at VFR weather minimums for Class G or above?) and get the clearance from LARS or Information in the air?
Thanks again!
Late February, early March. Date is not yet set. Probably in from northern Germany early in the morning, out in the evening. The alternative is airline service into Gatwick, which would mean spending a night (or two). Not that I would mind that, but flying by myself would be more fun.
Mr. Monster
,Good to talk to you again. Certainly a very long time! I hope all is well. Any trips planned to the continent? I'll be leading a group through the Danish isles in June. Also, I'll be at Tannkosh, an event well worth attending. And I might just make it to the Scilly Islands for a brief holiday.
As for the fees at EGHI, from what I gather they are not too bad for British standards and comparable to Bournemouth, which would be a potential alternative. Am I wrong?
And if I am, what about Bournemouth or, for that matter, any other airfield not connected to the airways system by the appropriate airspace? How would the whole thing work there? Take off (at VFR weather minimums for Class G or above?) and get the clearance from LARS or Information in the air?
Thanks again!
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Thomas,
If you file an IFR flight plan all of your clearances within the London FIR will keep you within controlled airspace. This applies equally to your arrival and departure from EGHI.
Don't forget that EGHI is PPR due to restricted parking - and they are not cheap at all. From my experience EGHH is by far the cheaper of the two.
Should you elect EGHH as your destination, again the clearances issued by ATC will ensure you remain within CAS and a known traffic environment.
Greetings from EBBR.
Oh dear!
If you file an IFR flight plan all of your clearances within the London FIR will keep you within controlled airspace. This applies equally to your arrival and departure from EGHI.
Don't forget that EGHI is PPR due to restricted parking - and they are not cheap at all. From my experience EGHH is by far the cheaper of the two.
Should you elect EGHH as your destination, again the clearances issued by ATC will ensure you remain within CAS and a known traffic environment.
Greetings from EBBR.
Oh dear!
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Thomas,
Planning an IFR run to EGHI next Thursday, returning Friday. I'll let you know how I get on.
All the best
Damian
PS Anyone with local knowledge able to point me toward the current schedule of fees for Southampton. The airport site is less than forthcomng on the subject?
Planning an IFR run to EGHI next Thursday, returning Friday. I'll let you know how I get on.
All the best
Damian
PS Anyone with local knowledge able to point me toward the current schedule of fees for Southampton. The airport site is less than forthcomng on the subject?
Last edited by Radar; 17th Feb 2011 at 09:46.
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This is my understand of how it works in the UK:
Any airport that is contained within controlled airspace (e.g. Southampton, Bournemouth, etc.), you depart IFR in the way you're used to.
For any airport outside controlled airspace, file your flight plan on the ground, and depart IFR while initially cruising low outside controlled airspace, so maintain your own avoidance from terrain and keep a good lookout if you can:
- Towered: Your tower/departure unit should be able to co-ordinate your clearance with the en-route facility.
- Non-Towered: After leaving the AFIS/AG frequency, contact your nearby LARS unit or London Information when outside LARS coverage, and they can co-ordinate your clearance with the en-route facility.
Once the clearance is given, expect to climb much higher and it should be easy from there onwards.
As Southampton airport requires mandatory handling, contact Signature Flight Support for more information.
Any airport that is contained within controlled airspace (e.g. Southampton, Bournemouth, etc.), you depart IFR in the way you're used to.
For any airport outside controlled airspace, file your flight plan on the ground, and depart IFR while initially cruising low outside controlled airspace, so maintain your own avoidance from terrain and keep a good lookout if you can:
- Towered: Your tower/departure unit should be able to co-ordinate your clearance with the en-route facility.
- Non-Towered: After leaving the AFIS/AG frequency, contact your nearby LARS unit or London Information when outside LARS coverage, and they can co-ordinate your clearance with the en-route facility.
Once the clearance is given, expect to climb much higher and it should be easy from there onwards.
As Southampton airport requires mandatory handling, contact Signature Flight Support for more information.
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Actually, the docs say "Mandatory handling for all non General Aviation aircraft." The little word "non" would keep me from getting in touch with Signature Aircraft - why should I? IMHO there is no indication for mandatory handling of GA aircraft at EGHI.
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Thomas - you have a PM
Although a handling agent isn't 'mandatory', parking space is extremely limited as has been said before. Now, for a quick stop (up to 30 minutes) airfield ops will park you near the terminal for a very reasonable price which you can pay direct to the airport.
Any longer, and you'll be directed up to the North end of the parking area where you will be forced to use Signature, as you'll only be able to access your aircraft via them. And once there you are a captive audience - you become one of their customers.
No other way round it I'm afraid
Although a handling agent isn't 'mandatory', parking space is extremely limited as has been said before. Now, for a quick stop (up to 30 minutes) airfield ops will park you near the terminal for a very reasonable price which you can pay direct to the airport.
Any longer, and you'll be directed up to the North end of the parking area where you will be forced to use Signature, as you'll only be able to access your aircraft via them. And once there you are a captive audience - you become one of their customers.
No other way round it I'm afraid
Thborchert
Unless you wish to pay Signature for handling I suggest that you telephone SOU Airside Operations (+442380627102) and request prior permission to land (PPR) and indicate the length of your stay on the ground. If you obtain prior permission from Operations you will not be charged a handling fee.
Operations are open 0630-2215 UTC Monday through Friday, 0630-2000 Saturday and 0730-2215 Sunday. It is best to request approval as soon as possible. Operations only accept a limited number of requests, which are subject to available parking stands. If they cannot issue approval (and a PPR number) you will have to request handling by Signature.
Best of luck!
Unless you wish to pay Signature for handling I suggest that you telephone SOU Airside Operations (+442380627102) and request prior permission to land (PPR) and indicate the length of your stay on the ground. If you obtain prior permission from Operations you will not be charged a handling fee.
Operations are open 0630-2215 UTC Monday through Friday, 0630-2000 Saturday and 0730-2215 Sunday. It is best to request approval as soon as possible. Operations only accept a limited number of requests, which are subject to available parking stands. If they cannot issue approval (and a PPR number) you will have to request handling by Signature.
Best of luck!
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Thomas,
Chilli (and TCAS) speaketh the truth ...... unfortunately.
I've just gotten off the phone with with a very pleasant gentleman at airside ops in Southampton. We would be most welcome to drop into EGHI next week, they are very definitely PPR, there is no possibility of overnight parking (not relevant to you, Thomas I know, but kinda scuppers our plans) and Signature were mentioned in the same breath.
The inability to overnight means I and the pax are going back to the drawing board. On the Flyer site a few weeks ago Bournemouth was being lambasted as GA unfriendly yet, earlier in this thread, were touted as an alternative. Any thoughts guys?
Chilli (and TCAS) speaketh the truth ...... unfortunately.
I've just gotten off the phone with with a very pleasant gentleman at airside ops in Southampton. We would be most welcome to drop into EGHI next week, they are very definitely PPR, there is no possibility of overnight parking (not relevant to you, Thomas I know, but kinda scuppers our plans) and Signature were mentioned in the same breath.
The inability to overnight means I and the pax are going back to the drawing board. On the Flyer site a few weeks ago Bournemouth was being lambasted as GA unfriendly yet, earlier in this thread, were touted as an alternative. Any thoughts guys?
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Given that the airline winter schedules into and out of Bournemouth were pretty well decimated, I'd have thought they would have been glad of any traffic, GA, Commercial or whatever. They cannot afford to be choosy.
Even an extra car in the car park would bring well needed revenue!
pp
Even an extra car in the car park would bring well needed revenue!
pp
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Try Bournemouth Handling. Details on the web.
Dependant upon where you're headed after landing, Bournemouth might be just as convenient, except that public transport links are not as good as Southampton.
Dependant upon where you're headed after landing, Bournemouth might be just as convenient, except that public transport links are not as good as Southampton.
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eyeinthesky,
Thanks very much mate, that's exactly what I've done. Southampton would have cost us 285 quid for handling and 24 hours parking
. Bournemouth comes out at 83. I'll drive an hour and a quarter for the difference
Thanks very much mate, that's exactly what I've done. Southampton would have cost us 285 quid for handling and 24 hours parking
. Bournemouth comes out at 83. I'll drive an hour and a quarter for the difference