SNOCLO
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
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Slight difference in climate and risk exposure there.
A snow plan is required for all FAR 139 certificated airports, and it must be submitted to the FAA for approval.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: I sell sea shells by the sea shore
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Thanks Bren,
So, as far as anyone can remember then (well, me and HD), EGLL hasn't been closed for an extended period since the Pea Souper days prior to CAT3
This would suggest that the current circumstances are somewhat rare and unusual.... at last at Heathrow.
BEX
So, as far as anyone can remember then (well, me and HD), EGLL hasn't been closed for an extended period since the Pea Souper days prior to CAT3
This would suggest that the current circumstances are somewhat rare and unusual.... at last at Heathrow.
BEX
Join Date: Jun 2001
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The last significant amount of snow at LHR fell yesterday afternoon, 18 December. The airport at this moment is only allowing limited departures and not accepting arrivals at all. It will not be fully operational until tomorrow morning, 20 December. That's 36 hours to deal with 3 inches of snow and to de-ice the ramps. Certainly there was more snow than usual, but it was hardly the Apocalypse, and icy ramps occur in London every winter. If the BAA was an airport operator then 'Third World response' would be a fair description, but as it's actually a retailer which has to suffer the inconvenience of operating an airport as a sideline then I guess it's response has been fairly good.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: On top of the world
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anotherthing, you said "
"
So why didn't the BAA tell them to get their aircraft off the stands to remote parking, or hit them with financial penalties ? Makes me wonder who runs the airport sometimes :-(
Heathrow is an extremely busy airport that struggles daily with the number of stands available, it is a very tightly run operation in that regard and usually works under normal operations using very nimble and precise timings. BA took the decision to cancel flights early. This means that aircraft that should have vacated stands didn't, exacerbating the problem.
So why didn't the BAA tell them to get their aircraft off the stands to remote parking, or hit them with financial penalties ? Makes me wonder who runs the airport sometimes :-(
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: YYZ via the UK
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Changer... My wife and I flew from O'Hare to St Louis once. Taxying out we were told there was a "one hour ground stop due to thunderstorms"!!!!!!! We duly sat there for an hour... OK, you people might be good with snow but we beat the pants off you with thunderstorms
As for the snow in the UK. Whilst I sympathise (having worked there)...there will come a point where the " it hardly ever happens so why invest the money" line will seem strange if it happens every year. So far it is 3 and counting.
And yes I accept that Heathrow is a complex operation with a lot of carriers..and the argument I put to my YYZ colleagues is where exactly they can put the snow (not a lot of room around the airport). However in area size to a lot of US airports it is not THAT big...so deicing should not be as complicated as made out to be.
It all comes down to planning...and it does seem the BAA seems to be rather lacking in that department. I try not to be too rude knowing the complexity of the operation...but when you work at a North American airport that has a laid out plan and acts to it.....it does beg the question of what the European hubs base their snow clearing model on?....cos it ain't working.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 59°45'36N 10°27'59E
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where exactly they can put the snow
Aprons? Well, even airports that work well in proper winter conditions need to truck snow off site at some point. I all boils down to training and procedues within airfield ops. In short term, using a couple of 100 meters of TWY as storage is easy. (Remove later when things quiet down some)
I know itīs not common with this much snow in the south of the UK, but working approach for an airport that uses 12-15 minutes to close-sweep-remove banks with blowers-clear exits-lay chemicals or sand-run friction test on 3500 meters of RWY.......
......it messes with my mind to hear about hours and days of problems.
A team from Gatwick visited Oslo last year to learn. Perhaps they should let a couple of guys stay for one whole winter......to learn.
Quick google gave the Heathrow Snow Plan
http://www.baa.com/assets/Internet/H..._2010_2011.pdf
It lists the clearence equipment, and with some more google to find some details on them...
Oh dear.....not much to work with.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
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<<Errmmm you don't stop for thunderstorms at Heathrow?? Must be fairly wussy storms then...I didn't think you were allowed to fuel an aircraft on the ramp if there was lightning around? Ground stops occur here for that very reason...plus a lot of the airlines don't seem to want to fly through them.>>
I was a controller dealing with Heathrow traffic for 31 years and recall very few times times when landings or take-offs stopped for more than a few minutes when there was a storm overhead. When the storm is close by, aircraft fly round it or the departure route is varied. I don't know about the refuelling restrictions; they may well exist. If we shut major airfields over here every time there was a Cb around it would be more chaotic than when we have snow!!
I was a controller dealing with Heathrow traffic for 31 years and recall very few times times when landings or take-offs stopped for more than a few minutes when there was a storm overhead. When the storm is close by, aircraft fly round it or the departure route is varied. I don't know about the refuelling restrictions; they may well exist. If we shut major airfields over here every time there was a Cb around it would be more chaotic than when we have snow!!
Join Date: Nov 2000
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The main problem at Heathrow is the ice. As, during the day, the temperatures have been getting into very low pluses, some of the snow that fell melted and then froze again before it dispersed. This has frozen many aircraft to their stands. De-icer doesn't work very well in these circumstances.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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As, during the day, the temperatures have been getting into very low pluses, some of the snow that fell melted and then froze again before it dispersed.
And FYI: When itīs too cold for Aviform/Safeway/Urea: Sand!
Shock-horror- etc etc Sand at an airport? Well yes, and itīs no major problem/disaster!
There are even gritters that can coat the sand with water steam as it exits the hopper onto the disperser rotors, making the sand freeze to the surface on contact. Lasts for days.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
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I saw a news feature on Helsinki airport and how they did their snowclearing.Their apron team was larger than most UK airports entire operations.They thought that the UK was like Finland in the 50's,slip sliding away.
Does anyone have a link that gives up to date info on airfield movements especially at London.
The BA website used to give a breakdown of dep/arr over a given hour but now that is not the case.
Also, has the snow been that bad in the UK?
I'm abroad so can't tell other than a photo of a mate's back garden!
The BA website used to give a breakdown of dep/arr over a given hour but now that is not the case.
Also, has the snow been that bad in the UK?
I'm abroad so can't tell other than a photo of a mate's back garden!
Just to jump back a few posts, and move slightly off-topic ...
> EGLL hasn't been closed for an extended period since
> the Pea Souper days prior to CAT3
Did Heathrow actually CLOSE during those periods, or was it still open but nobody could use it due to the visibility?
NN
> EGLL hasn't been closed for an extended period since
> the Pea Souper days prior to CAT3
Did Heathrow actually CLOSE during those periods, or was it still open but nobody could use it due to the visibility?
NN
Join Date: Apr 2008
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Cost!!
A good contact inside the fence has suggested that the problem with the runway clearance is the cost of anti ice as they managed to misuse over 500,000ltrs of the stuff first time round and it cost approx Ģ5 per litre.
The snow plan was taken as ''just clear the bugger'' and we will sort it out later this is a one off event.
Majority of the snow ploughs also needed a service and repair after the first event due to a reduction in the training of the operators to save cost. And not listening to the experienced employees.
Run by Managers or accountants!!!!
Or I'm I just being cynical.
The snow plan was taken as ''just clear the bugger'' and we will sort it out later this is a one off event.
Majority of the snow ploughs also needed a service and repair after the first event due to a reduction in the training of the operators to save cost. And not listening to the experienced employees.
Run by Managers or accountants!!!!
Or I'm I just being cynical.
Join Date: Jul 2010
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HeliA1 - agree. I was around in winter of '63 when snow lay for 3 months and there was no travel chaos then - I used public transport every day and remember LL staying open (and Northolt). OK LL did not have so many movements but it also only had 3 terminals and associated ramps.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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OK LL did not have so many movements but it also only had 3 terminals and associated ramps.
If the last really bad weather you can think of was 1963, do you honestly believe that it is financially prudent to have the level of snow clearance abilities that you and others seem to think we should have? Stuff just sitting round for 40-50 years in the chance of a very severe winter?
I can guarantee that airports will have weather disruption written into their business plan, and will allow for a certain amount each year as being
commercially acceptable versus cost of having extra equipment. This year had been an exception weather-wise.
I'm no fan of BAA, far from it. In general airfield operators have dicked about this year and caused havoc which ATC then has to deal with (my opinion) - but poor management/lack of willingness to make a decision aside, they (airfield operators) are having to deal with extraordinary (UK talking) weather.
Interesting to see on BBC website that as well as bashing the UK, you can, if you can be bothered to look, find more balanced reporting where it states other countries are struggling as well...
Also, BBC News yesterday tried to find stranded foreign interviewees who would condemn the UK... the majority stated that it was to be expected due to the severe weather and that their countries are the same. Cue one disgruntled BBC reporter
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Don't forget the bigger picture...
Let's say we spend a fortune on snow clearance equipment and chemicals - think of it as like paying buildings and contents insurance for your house. You hope you never use it. But, say we did spend the money, did the training and got ourselves up to the standard of the Scandinavians (and even got to point where a braking action is given as part of a METAR instead of an excuse?), would be of any use if the passengers/cargo couldn't get to and from the airport? Heathrow is a pain in the bum to get to at the best of times, let alone in snow. Personally, I think they have done a pretty good job with what little they have, as have Gatwick. The only real solution, as ever, is to look at the whole transport system and decide what needs to work and under what conditions. Someone has to decide if we need bread and milk in shops or is it more important to have airports open so we can fly to Disneyland. Once we have taken that decision, we can then equip and train (or not) to provide the level of service for the prevailing conditions.
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