You are off radar

[malecontrol]

In aerodromes where radar is used what is the standard phraseology to be used when a target goes off radar or a blip disappears?

And when the pilot squawks ident and reappears on the screen what is the standard phraseology to let him know that he is back on radar? Can the word 'identified' be used?

Where I work (Male International Airport, Maldives) I often hear the phrase, 'recycle the transponder', when a target gets lost on screen. Is this a correct phraseology?

Note: This is specifically for aerodrome radars.

Thank you all.

[Guy D'ageradar]

Note: This is specifically for aerodrome radars.

So are we talking about a radar envoronment (ie qualified radar controllers, providing a radar service) or not?

If so, "radar contact lost" and "identified" may certainly be used, otherwise, depends on the circumstances and what your local instructions say.

[chevvron]

Guy: in some countries, aerodromes have their own radar approach control rather than having several aerodromes covered by a terminal control.
Malecontrol:
How about 'losing radar contact, terminating radar service'.
When the return re-appears, re-identify by either asking to squawk ident or assigning a discrete transponder code in which case 'ident' is not required. In both cases, the pilot must be informed he is identified and the type of ATS being provided must be agreed between pilot and controller.

[Spitoon]

Originally Posted by chevvron

In both cases, the pilot must be informed he is identified and the type of ATS being provided must be agreed between pilot and controller.

Specifying the type of ATS being provided and agreeing a 'contract' between pilot and controller is not a universal procedure. In many environments - where ICAO SARPs are applied without modification or creative interpretation - if the aircraft is in CAS it gets controlled, if outside it does not get an ATC service and, in broad terms, will get a (ICAO style) FIS. In such circumstances "Idenitfied [position]" normally suffices and, by definition, it wll be a radar control service.

As to malecontrol's original question, it may be important to clarify what the 'aerodrome radar' is. If it is a 'proper' surveillance radar used to provide approach radar control services, "radar contact lost" would seem fine annd in common use although ICAO specifies "identification lost [reasons] (instructions)" in association with the termination of radar service (Doc 4444 para 12.4.1.10). If the target is thought likely to reappear after recycling the tx'der then "recycle the transponder" will work fine, but again, ICAO specifies the slightly different "reset squawk [(mode)] (code)]" (Doc 4444 para 12.4.3.3). Whether this is sufficient for the controller to say the target is again identified may depend on other circumstances - getting an ident will confirm the ident.

If instead of an approach control radar malecontrol is talking about a display of radar information presented to TWR controllers (especially those who do not have radar ratings), I think the locally agreed/approved procedures and instructions would be the reference to be used.

[aluminium persuader]

I think the OP is referring to "radar towers" where the tower controller has a radar screen (not VRD) & is able to give a certain level of radar service, which may or may not include vectors. Reasonably common overseas, eg Australia. However, the ADC controllers may not have a radar rating!

Male, the phraseology used would depend on why radar contact was lost & whether primary, secondary or both. Best suggestion is to ask the guy when you hear it next.

ap

[NZScion]

The term used frequently in Australia is "Identification Terminated".

[malecontrol]

Thank you all for your input.

Looks like I have to first answer a lot of questions before I will have my answer

Let me try to make you guys understand.

Here what I am talking about is radar monitoring. We have 20DME radius control zone, Class D airspace. 95% or more of the traffic we handle are VFR twin otters (DHC-6) with floats - seaplanes. And in our CTZ we have 360 two way routes in and out (sarcasm) - there are no specific routes for VFR. And it isn't unusual to have more than 30 - 35 ACFT airborne at the same time in this CTZ.

In December 2008 we got radar. Before that it was all procedural and our CTZ was not exactly a safe place to fly with that many traffic. Once the radar systems were installed we were told (aerodrome controllers) that there is nothing in existence called an aerodrome radar, thus we were never trained for radar monitoring. (You must have understood by now that a lot of politics go here).

So as aerodrome controllers we don't vector, we are not trained radar controllers, we don't hold radar ratings. So this means we really can't use many or any of the radar phraseologies that radar controllers use, right? We were told by our very senior controllers that radar identification cannot be done by aerodrome unless a radar service is provided. They are very rarely right but I believe in this case they are. So what should I tell the pilot when in mid-air his transponder goes down or I lose him on the radar screen for some reason? And how can I let him know when he pops back up? Clearly 'IDENTIFIED' is a forbidden word.

NZScion, in Australia, Identification Terminated, is that a phraseology used in towers similar to us?

Some of you might find these as stupid questions but I got to find answers because we are very very under-trained.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I'm just wondering why, if they have invested in radar equipment, they haven't trained the controllers to use it?

As things stand, I believe that you have no right to tell a pilot that he is out of radar contact, or back in radar contact as you cannot provide a radar service.

[malecontrol]

I really can't discuss all the politics that goes in here, I am sorry.

Do you consider using radar as source just to monitor traffic, pass traffic info and sequence as a radar service - I mean the actual radar service as in APS vectoring and stuff? Are there any controllers in here from anywhere who use radars in aerodromes? If so how do you guys do it?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

If you are not a qualified radar controller you cannot sequence approach traffic. What happens if you make a mistake? In order to do what you suggest you would need some sort of endorsement on your licence and what you can do and cannot do must be clearly laid down in your local ATC instructions. I don't understand how "politics" can enter this situation??

At major airfields there are ground radars, which Aerdrome controllers can use for directing traffic on the ground, e.g. in poor visibility. Many towers have "approach" radars which may be used to monitor the traffic situation - to see which aircraft are on final approach, whether an outbound has turned the way you expected, etc., but they may not be used for any form of radar control. (Unless everything has changed since I retired!!).

[Spitoon]

male, the ICAO rulers for what you appear to have are set out in PANS-ATM (para 8.1.1). It says

8.10.1.1 When authorized by and subject to conditions prescribed by the appropriate ATS authority, surveillance radar may be used in the provision of aerodrome control service to perform the following functions:
a) radar monitoring of aircraft on final approach;
b) radar monitoring of other aircraft in the vicinity of the aerodrome;
c) establishing radar separation between succeeding departing aircraft; and
d) providing navigation assistance to VFR flights.

8.10.1.2 Special VFR flights shall not be radar vectored unless special circumstances, such as emergencies, dictate otherwise.

8.10.1.3 Caution shall be exercised when radar vectoring VFR flights so as to ensure that the aircraft concerned does not inadvertently enter instrument meteorological conditions.

8.10.1.4 In prescribing conditions and procedures for the use of radar in the provision of aerodrome control service, the appropriate ATS authority shall ensure that the availability and use of radar information will not be detrimental to visual observation of aerodrome traffic.

Note.— Control of aerodrome traffic is in the main based on visual observation of the manoeuvring area and the vicinity of the aerodrome by the aerodrome controller.

The document defines Radar monitoring as the use of radar for the purpose of providing aircraft with information and advice relative to significant
deviations from nominal flight path, including deviations from the terms of their air traffic control clearances.

If your authority has not set any specific instructions I would suggest that the radar is there simply to augment your view out of the window. If you know which aircraft is which from the SSR codes then you can provide useful navigation and flight information to pilots but this doesn't necessarily require you to tell the pilots that they're identified. I used to to the phrase "Traffic believed to be you ...".

If the target disappears I can't see any reason why you can't ask a pilot to reset the tx'der without being committed to providing a radar service. As an aside, in many circumstances in a radar environment I used to identify an aircraft but, quite specifically, not provide a radar control service - it's often very helpful to know that a target is a particular aircraft without having to take responsibility for any part of the flight if it isn't necessary.

The ICAO rules talk about vectoring traffic but I think if you look at other parts of the rulebook you'll find that this would only be possible if the aerodrome controller also holds a radar qualification or training specified by your authority. I'm afraid I don't really have time to dig out the references right now.

I hope this helps.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<in many circumstances in a radar environment I used to identify an aircraft but>>

Unless this was using SSR, presumably you were radar qualified? I cannot see how a non-qualified controller could, for example, instruct an aircraft to make a turn for identification. I note that the quote from PANS-ATM does not mention the qualifications required of the controller(s).

[Spitoon]

Thanks HD, yes, I should have said that I was a fully rated radar controller providing an approach radar control service.

I was trying to illustrate the principle that a controller can use radar-derived information without actually providing a radar service or - in the right circumstances - a radar qualification.

And I think ICAO is rather vague on the qualifications that an ADC need to use radar, passing the buck to the national authority to set the rules. And unfortunately it sounds like male's national authority hasn't clarified what should happen locally.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

OK Spitoon.. thanks. I know that at some airfields in the UK there are surveillance radars in the tower in lieu of old-fashioned DFTIs but I don't know the precise rules regarding their usage. However, I'm pretty sure they cannot be used for radar directing.

Cheers Bren

[arearadar]

aerodrome radar

Hello malecontrol,

I appreciate your political problems, but let me put it this way.
Years ago, when at a mjor airport in the North of England, we had an ACR6 radar in the tower. At night aerodrome and appproach/approach radar was performed by one man in the tower. To do this the controller had to have aerodrome, approach and approach radar ratings and validations. He could then use, as you put it, radar phraseology.

Dave

[Blockla]

In such circumstances "Idenitfied [position]" normally suffices and, by definition, it wll be a radar control service.

Not all identified aircraft get a control service. VFR aircraft in D/E/F/G may get varying radar services, many not 'controlled', IFR aircraft in F/G will not get a controlled service but may get a radar service where they are under continuous surveillance, or just a 'snapshot' service, but even then they'll be identified for the 'snapshot' period.

[malecontrol]

Thanks all

Ours is an SSR

HD, well we don't have ground radar, our aerodrome is too tiny for that. When I said sequencing I was talking about the VFR twin otters that we control who land on a lagoon just next to the main runway. We don't provide any sort of approach control from the TWR. We have an endorsement in our lincenses that says, RAD which is equal to aerodrome radar but we were never trained for this - now do you see any politics there?

Like I said before, our CTZ is 20 miles in radius, so we cannot really see a lot of traffic that we control. So, HD do you mean that we cannot use radar even to provide traffic information and to sequence arriving VFR traffic unless we are fully rated radar controllers?

Spitoon, thank you very much. But what is the purpose or reason for saying trffic believed to be.....I mean isn't it clear that he is who you think who he is by the tranponder code? We never identify those traffic, we just shout the callsign and, for an example, tell them you got trffic to your right or 2 o'clock at 10 miles or you are number two in the sequence behind someone. Do yo mean this cannot be done unless I hold a radar rating? In our aerodrome all the VFR traffic have pre-assigned transponder codes and they always use the same code. When they are airborne we mannually input the callsign (which is also the rgistration of the ACFT) corresponding to the code.

This is a hell more complicated than I thought it would be....phew.

[novation]

malecontrol- a few questions:

When you say you're sequencing traffic due you mean you are actually vectoring, and applying speed control to achieve separation minima for traffic in trail inbound for landing?

Also, can you confirm you have had no formal training on RADAR and have not acquired the relevant endorsement for the country you work in?

I only ask these questions because you knowledge of the principals or identifying traffic on RADAR seems to be minimal. For a trained RADAR controller what SPITOON and HD both say, not only makes perfect sense, but also isn't complicated. The principals of identifying a/c on RADAR is basic stuff covered at the very beginning of RADAR training.

If the answer to the above questions is YES than I can assure you what you are doing is illegal and extremely dangerous.

[malecontrol]

novation, for some of the questions the answer is no for some yes

When I said sequencing I didn't mean vectors and application of speed. We don't vector as I have said before in an earlier post in this thread. We control a Class D control zone. So it's like, ABC you are number 3 behind the twin otter on final. And ABC traffic twin otter to your right or your 2 o'clock at 7 miles. I mean the same aerodrome stuff...but we get to use a radar monitor to monitor traffic and provide traffic info with much accuracy than before when we did procedural.

And yes I have not received any radar training - none of us aerodrome controllers here, that should explain the limited amount of knowledge.

What we do here is may be illegal I am not really sure because I don't really know how radars are used in aerodromes. Our approach surveilance controllers are fully trained and rated on radar. So when we get a radar monitor up in the TWR and are told to use it the questions comes to mind, 'OK how do we use it?', because there was no training. That's the reason I am asking you guys seemingly stupid questions. But I assure you we are not doing anything dangerous, at least so far. Illegal? May be.

Spitoon has given a ref. to an ICAO doc (how do you quote here ) where it says how can radar be used in aerodromes. Do we need a rating to do that too?

[055166k]

malecontrol

Spitoon post 11 is perfectly clear. What do you want us to say? I suggest that you have been given a new toy and you are determined to use it as such. Treat it as a monitor to "give yourself an informed picture" of the traffic situation. I think you are in danger of catching the ATC disease of Chronic Overcontrol. Stop concentrating on the "fish-finder" and use the Mark One Eyeball........refer to the radar occassionally [briefly] and resist trying to control with it. Talk to the pilots [out of work, that is]....I think you'll find that traffic information rather than positive control is more useful because it enables them to fly the plane and use their own judgement.....especially if they're VFR. Use control application only in the accepted sense that an aerodrome controller uses it.......be prepared to recognise that you are not a radar controller in the environment that you have described.
Good Luck.