Spanish ATC
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The Government has instructed the Military Authorities to take control of all Spanish airspace with immediate effect. They will be in charge of the whole operation and civil controllers have been urged to return to work under orders from the Ministry of Defence under decree law which was approved earlier on today....
who knows where this is going...
who knows where this is going...
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@Juan Toledo
as one of your customer, I got mad about the inconveniency. Thinking for more then two seconds, I honestly have to tell you, that you did the only right thing.
If we pilots would have done something like this ten years ago, nowbody hade to complain about pay to fly, fatigue and the whole staff.
I realy admire your action.
P.S be aware, in the upcoming discussens you always will be accused of taking hostages (pooor brave hearts) during the peak hours and hollyday season. But thats the only moment, where it realy make sense to lean out of the window.
All the best
as one of your customer, I got mad about the inconveniency. Thinking for more then two seconds, I honestly have to tell you, that you did the only right thing.
If we pilots would have done something like this ten years ago, nowbody hade to complain about pay to fly, fatigue and the whole staff.
I realy admire your action.
P.S be aware, in the upcoming discussens you always will be accused of taking hostages (pooor brave hearts) during the peak hours and hollyday season. But thats the only moment, where it realy make sense to lean out of the window.
All the best
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Bolli two months ago the spanish military commanders were on television saying they were not qualified to do the job.. that apart from their level of english. Friend of mine down here is an english teacher and international house just put out the word today of a big short notice contract to all teachers willing to teach english in the air force academy.
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RTVE and the press are reporting that some civil controllers are returning to work all over the country. The Prime Minister Mr Z has given orders to the Ministry of Defence to take control of all Spanish airspace with immediate effect. The military authorities will assume responsibility of all operational decisions regarding the provision of air traffic service in Spain and civil controllers have been instructed to return to work under orders from the Ministry of Defence. (or else...)
Spanish Controllers are being prosecuted in Madrid for criminal offences against the general public facing potential severe consequences.
...
No official announcement yet as to when normal operation is expected to be ressumed but the government are expected to give an update at 02:00.
... quite surreal.
Spanish Controllers are being prosecuted in Madrid for criminal offences against the general public facing potential severe consequences.
...
No official announcement yet as to when normal operation is expected to be ressumed but the government are expected to give an update at 02:00.
... quite surreal.
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Just watching the news in Madrid, not that I understand spanish all that well if at all, but its messed up out there, shortage of hotels and bus's etc
It really has had a massive impact on Madrid and the rest of spain, wonder how much this will cost the spanish goverment in lost revenue?
Glad I am on my days off! back to the beer and pringles
p.s. think the ATCO's were just on the TV, looked like they were gonna get mobbed! lol
Sack them and start again I recon.
And I agree with the strike,,, just dont agree how crap they are in general.
It really has had a massive impact on Madrid and the rest of spain, wonder how much this will cost the spanish goverment in lost revenue?
Glad I am on my days off! back to the beer and pringles
p.s. think the ATCO's were just on the TV, looked like they were gonna get mobbed! lol
Sack them and start again I recon.
And I agree with the strike,,, just dont agree how crap they are in general.
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Well, how will insurance companies react? Will they insure flights under these conditions? I mean, if the military takes over and the military operates now ATC in Spain, it will be an increased threat of security standards.
Such insurance doesnt only cover the airplane but also the passengers. So is the insurance still valid or will the insurance fee be increased, or just no insurance when flying over Spanish military controlled FIR?
Any ideas?
Such insurance doesnt only cover the airplane but also the passengers. So is the insurance still valid or will the insurance fee be increased, or just no insurance when flying over Spanish military controlled FIR?
Any ideas?
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It was not until after Reagan fired scores or hundreds of US controllers that I first got any idea of just how many military controllers there were working in the country.
Vivid memory of entering a control tower cab to see an Airforce sergeant telling a student pilot: "If you do not keep your next downwind closer to the field, your touch & gos will be terminated".
Vivid memory of entering a control tower cab to see an Airforce sergeant telling a student pilot: "If you do not keep your next downwind closer to the field, your touch & gos will be terminated".
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You'd have a point Mir, if it weren't for the fact that Spanish ATC have had some extremely attractive working conditions over the past years. Twelve hundred working hours max per year and anything above that had to be paid via extra-hours. Annual salaries starting at € 170,000 could easily be increased to € 400,000 per year. Every single time the government which just happened to be in charge tried to change those conditions, they'd go on strike.
"Of 2,300 controllers, ten were paid between €810,000 (£725,000) and €900,000 last year. A further 226 were paid between €450,000 and €540,000 and 701 were paid between €270,000 and €360,000." [Source]
Then no one heard them complain about workload nor passenger safety.
"Of 2,300 controllers, ten were paid between €810,000 (£725,000) and €900,000 last year. A further 226 were paid between €450,000 and €540,000 and 701 were paid between €270,000 and €360,000." [Source]
Then no one heard them complain about workload nor passenger safety.
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True Old Fokker, but as you say that was then and this is now. 2000 hours per year as an english teacher in Madrid is 4166 euros per month in Madrid before basic benefits. . As Jtoledo says though those figures no longer are the real issue , as for Zapaterro and his bunch of a** clowns they are earning a lot more than their predecessors were ten years ago. People keep pointing at the "money" but its not the issue. Looking into the eyes of a spanish controller coming off shift is almost frightening , red eyed , bleary , not all there because they are fatigued and fed up.
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Good Post Old F 
I remember many years ago when a pilots wage was much higher then ATCO's.
And guys, don't be to alarmed about the Spanish ATCO's working hours. A third of that time is supposed to be in a bed!
If you are empolyed by the state and the state is in financial crisis expect to share the burden!
Gonna be interesting with military controllers.
Teddy
I remember many years ago when a pilots wage was much higher then ATCO's.
And guys, don't be to alarmed about the Spanish ATCO's working hours. A third of that time is supposed to be in a bed!
If you are empolyed by the state and the state is in financial crisis expect to share the burden!
Gonna be interesting with military controllers.
Teddy
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You think so? Well, the insurance terms and conditions also points out, that insurance will not cover any damages caused by strike, industrial unrest, lockouts and civial commotions, SRCC ( strikes, riots, and civil commotions).
This is for example stated in the 'Allianz Luftfahrthafplichtversicherungsbedingungen' (Allianz Aircraft/Aviation Liability Insurance), Point 6.1.7 under the Point 6 Exclusions.
I just mention the Allianz LuHaftpflicht but there are also others with the same wording in this case.
Maybe an increased fee may apply.
However I think that most companies will neglect it, because nobody reads the small terms....
or just not make too much noise about it. And it's written there black on white. You can even read different terms and conditions online....just google 'Peter H Braasch and you can download the terms of different insurance companies.
This is for example stated in the 'Allianz Luftfahrthafplichtversicherungsbedingungen' (Allianz Aircraft/Aviation Liability Insurance), Point 6.1.7 under the Point 6 Exclusions.
I just mention the Allianz LuHaftpflicht but there are also others with the same wording in this case.
Maybe an increased fee may apply.
However I think that most companies will neglect it, because nobody reads the small terms....
or just not make too much noise about it. And it's written there black on white. You can even read different terms and conditions online....just google 'Peter H Braasch and you can download the terms of different insurance companies.
Last edited by Blue5; 3rd Dec 2010 at 23:39.
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paidworker:
"the fact is that the King of Spain ( who is supposed not to be involved in state matters like this ) signed a decree saying that it is illegal for atc to go on strike."
Wrong on 2 accounts
Firstly, the King of Spain has to sign ALL royal decrees as the word "royal" implies (Real Decreto). A decree is made up by the government, approved and then send on to the King for official approval which merely consists in him signing it.
Secondly, the urgent decree does not say it is illegal for atc to go on strike. Not even close!
The decree had to be made up and signed by the King to be able to allow the Spanish Military take control over Spanish Airspace. I don't know if you are aware but the days that the Spanish Military could do as it pleased in Spain are long gone. They need decrees now before they can step in.
"So long as state sponsored television and newspapers continue to print the " party line " I do accept it is very hard for people to see what is really happening."
I don't know what television you are watching nor what papers you read, but even the right leaning Spanish media are reporting this as it is: that it is not a strike but ATC personnel abandoning their jobs.
"True Old Fokker, but as you say that was then and this is now."
Did you bother to check the source I gave? That was January of this year.
"As Jtoledo says though those figures no longer are the real issue , as for Zapaterro and his bunch of a** clowns..."
Your true colours are showing now, but continue...
"...they are earning a lot more than their predecessors were ten years ago. People keep pointing at the "money" but its not the issue. Looking into the eyes of a spanish controller coming off shift is almost frightening , red eyed , bleary , not all there because they are fatigued and fed up."
Poppycock!
Spanish government's new conditions establish a max working hours per year of 1,670. Before, when working conditions were very favourable for Spanish ATC, they very often did a total of 1,700 working hours per year, 500 more than the 1,200 base and earning considerably more because those 500 were considered extra hours. Hence the huge salaries and the huge costs. And all that while their productivity is below European average.
"the fact is that the King of Spain ( who is supposed not to be involved in state matters like this ) signed a decree saying that it is illegal for atc to go on strike."
Wrong on 2 accounts
Firstly, the King of Spain has to sign ALL royal decrees as the word "royal" implies (Real Decreto). A decree is made up by the government, approved and then send on to the King for official approval which merely consists in him signing it.
Secondly, the urgent decree does not say it is illegal for atc to go on strike. Not even close!
The decree had to be made up and signed by the King to be able to allow the Spanish Military take control over Spanish Airspace. I don't know if you are aware but the days that the Spanish Military could do as it pleased in Spain are long gone. They need decrees now before they can step in.
"So long as state sponsored television and newspapers continue to print the " party line " I do accept it is very hard for people to see what is really happening."
I don't know what television you are watching nor what papers you read, but even the right leaning Spanish media are reporting this as it is: that it is not a strike but ATC personnel abandoning their jobs.
"True Old Fokker, but as you say that was then and this is now."
Did you bother to check the source I gave? That was January of this year.
"As Jtoledo says though those figures no longer are the real issue , as for Zapaterro and his bunch of a** clowns..."
Your true colours are showing now, but continue...
"...they are earning a lot more than their predecessors were ten years ago. People keep pointing at the "money" but its not the issue. Looking into the eyes of a spanish controller coming off shift is almost frightening , red eyed , bleary , not all there because they are fatigued and fed up."
Poppycock!
Spanish government's new conditions establish a max working hours per year of 1,670. Before, when working conditions were very favourable for Spanish ATC, they very often did a total of 1,700 working hours per year, 500 more than the 1,200 base and earning considerably more because those 500 were considered extra hours. Hence the huge salaries and the huge costs. And all that while their productivity is below European average.
Last edited by Old_Fokker; 3rd Dec 2010 at 23:54. Reason: Typo
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As i understand it the law states that they must provide a minimum service , a level which is so high given the actual staffing levels that its net effect is they can not strike. I am based in Ocana and from the guys studying to be controllers there this is my understanding , when in tommorrow I will find the references. If it was as simple as go on strike without pay and the average controller is earning so much money , then what would a month be to them? As the article points out , they are a smart bunch of people. I believe they quoted the average salary as 200,000 euros, an ok salary given the workload, but its not what the people in training for the last years here were training for and not what people I met were earning ,, they question the salary figures being published in a big way. That being said If it was my wage I would defend it ( might have been better for Zapateroo to fly business class to Zurich yesterday as opposed to take the government jet or kill projects such as building roundabouts in small villages to increase tourism ( s** you not ). God help you when your terms and conditions are eroded such that your workforce end up paying to work..oh wait..
As for my true colors , I am not fond of Zapaterro for many reasons but mostly because anybody down here with an ounce of sense knows all this is really about is breaking the union before selling AENA off too private "interests". Some are ok with that , personally I am not. Its hidden behind the easy to stir noisy mob. Sometimes the handling of this from Blanco seems so heavy handed you might suspect he was trying to provoke things.
My company is directly effected by the problems , we dont have a route network to absorb the financial impact of a go slow etc. We have gone to meet with the controllers several times , I would say monthly, in an effort to gain concessions with them we have negotiated directly with them , some of them look pretty beaten up if you ask me.
As for my true colors , I am not fond of Zapaterro for many reasons but mostly because anybody down here with an ounce of sense knows all this is really about is breaking the union before selling AENA off too private "interests". Some are ok with that , personally I am not. Its hidden behind the easy to stir noisy mob. Sometimes the handling of this from Blanco seems so heavy handed you might suspect he was trying to provoke things.
My company is directly effected by the problems , we dont have a route network to absorb the financial impact of a go slow etc. We have gone to meet with the controllers several times , I would say monthly, in an effort to gain concessions with them we have negotiated directly with them , some of them look pretty beaten up if you ask me.
Last edited by paidworker; 4th Dec 2010 at 00:34.
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Stick to the facts, please
Teddy,
the 33% rest rule applies only to night shifts. Dunno in Spain but out of 200+ shifts I do a year, I do around 15 night shifts. As an example this year I did 18, my basic 15, 1extra for service reasons and 2 swaps to help a colleague (he worked my day shifts; next time it'll be the other way round). That does make sense when you know that I may work a night shift any day, even if 24h after finished I may be getting up to work again. So day 1 work night, day 2 sleep during day, day 3 be at work at 0630 sharp local time. It's not a matter of wanting, it's a matter of being human, you can only pull it for that long.
Which brings me back to Old Fokker. Maybe there were no complains back then because, as a worker, you could choose if you wanted to work overtime (if you could pull it). No one is young forever or is willing to be away from friends and family for that long. So no one complained because, based on your data*, 10% of the workforce were abusing the overtime system, and 20% more were doing overtime (how much is up to debate).
NOW EVERYONE IS WORKING TWICE AS MUCH AND THEY'RE FORCED TO DO IT. Excuse the "shouting" but your argument is twisted and I see it repeated everywhere. Some people even had been granted a reduced working time (=less money too, you know?) to take care of their kids or sick relatives. Well no more, all in the interest of the traveling masses.
Also, on another note, let's not forget that the timing of this has more to do with the letter controllers got today and the news about privatization than with the holiday weekend. Or you're to say that people traveling this weekend are more important than people traveling any other, not universally calendar marked, date? If any of you feel like answering that one I leave some more food for thought: were do you draw the line between workers rights and other rights? (freedom of movement in this case, but who knows what next?)
Good night and safe journeys,
A.
PD: data* there is a debate, for those who know that icebergs are bigger under the surface, that the data given out by the government is not "accurate". Unfortunately it is one of those things which is almost impossible to check, and even if you would, nobody would believe you. But rumour has it that those figures were not what controllers earned, but how much those controllers cost to the company (so not the home take pay, but added tax, training costs, admin costs and even the electricity and heating bill of the facilities were they work amongst others). Fact? I do not know, but given that the government had an agenda, I'd be very careful about what they say.
the 33% rest rule applies only to night shifts. Dunno in Spain but out of 200+ shifts I do a year, I do around 15 night shifts. As an example this year I did 18, my basic 15, 1extra for service reasons and 2 swaps to help a colleague (he worked my day shifts; next time it'll be the other way round). That does make sense when you know that I may work a night shift any day, even if 24h after finished I may be getting up to work again. So day 1 work night, day 2 sleep during day, day 3 be at work at 0630 sharp local time. It's not a matter of wanting, it's a matter of being human, you can only pull it for that long.
Which brings me back to Old Fokker. Maybe there were no complains back then because, as a worker, you could choose if you wanted to work overtime (if you could pull it). No one is young forever or is willing to be away from friends and family for that long. So no one complained because, based on your data*, 10% of the workforce were abusing the overtime system, and 20% more were doing overtime (how much is up to debate).
NOW EVERYONE IS WORKING TWICE AS MUCH AND THEY'RE FORCED TO DO IT. Excuse the "shouting" but your argument is twisted and I see it repeated everywhere. Some people even had been granted a reduced working time (=less money too, you know?) to take care of their kids or sick relatives. Well no more, all in the interest of the traveling masses.
Also, on another note, let's not forget that the timing of this has more to do with the letter controllers got today and the news about privatization than with the holiday weekend. Or you're to say that people traveling this weekend are more important than people traveling any other, not universally calendar marked, date? If any of you feel like answering that one I leave some more food for thought: were do you draw the line between workers rights and other rights? (freedom of movement in this case, but who knows what next?)
Good night and safe journeys,
A.
PD: data* there is a debate, for those who know that icebergs are bigger under the surface, that the data given out by the government is not "accurate". Unfortunately it is one of those things which is almost impossible to check, and even if you would, nobody would believe you. But rumour has it that those figures were not what controllers earned, but how much those controllers cost to the company (so not the home take pay, but added tax, training costs, admin costs and even the electricity and heating bill of the facilities were they work amongst others). Fact? I do not know, but given that the government had an agenda, I'd be very careful about what they say.
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Latest News:
The Vice-Prime Minister has just announced that the overall supervision of air traffic control in Spain has been taken over by the Military. The controllers in some cases have reported for work in recent shifts but in some cases do not appear to want to work.
The next step the Spanish Government will take will be an emergency meeting of ministers at 9.00 am tomorrow Saturday and if at that time the air traffic controllers have not brought the air traffic in Spain to normality, the Ministers will announce the State of Alarm in Spain and the air traffic controllers will be required to report for duty under that emergency requirement. If any air traffic controller refuses to report for duty under the State of Alarm, the controller will be liable to criminal prosecution with the risk of getting a possible lengthy prison sentence.
The Vice-Prime Minister has just announced that the overall supervision of air traffic control in Spain has been taken over by the Military. The controllers in some cases have reported for work in recent shifts but in some cases do not appear to want to work.
The next step the Spanish Government will take will be an emergency meeting of ministers at 9.00 am tomorrow Saturday and if at that time the air traffic controllers have not brought the air traffic in Spain to normality, the Ministers will announce the State of Alarm in Spain and the air traffic controllers will be required to report for duty under that emergency requirement. If any air traffic controller refuses to report for duty under the State of Alarm, the controller will be liable to criminal prosecution with the risk of getting a possible lengthy prison sentence.
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Surprising how little people know.
Even when a military controller would speak good English it would need a license to work a specific sector or tower.
Legally! you can't just walk in, take the mic and do the job!
The license requires training and supervision and time.
Even when a military controller would speak good English it would need a license to work a specific sector or tower.
Legally! you can't just walk in, take the mic and do the job!
The license requires training and supervision and time.
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Actually now all the civil ATCO's are Military. Zapatero is a magician, didn't you know?
Jokes aside, they just been royal decreed over form the ministry of development to the ministry of defense...and...et voila! Magic! Now they really have no rights, and military law is their law. And as we all sort of know: in the military you just do as your boss says; or else.
Forget just culture, forget doing what you think is best. From a couple of hours ago there are Mil Commanders and Military-ish Police (guardia civil) in every control centre (and tower? I guess at least in the big ones) and you better do as you're told.
This is gonna end in tears.
Jokes aside, they just been royal decreed over form the ministry of development to the ministry of defense...and...et voila! Magic! Now they really have no rights, and military law is their law. And as we all sort of know: in the military you just do as your boss says; or else.
Forget just culture, forget doing what you think is best. From a couple of hours ago there are Mil Commanders and Military-ish Police (guardia civil) in every control centre (and tower? I guess at least in the big ones) and you better do as you're told.
This is gonna end in tears.
Similarities with 1981 USA ATC and Ronald Reagan's measures?
Could anyone with a view to the situation comment on similarities - or not - with the USA ATC situation in 1981, Ronald Reagan's measures taken and the then immediate and final outcome for all involved?
Ballanced views appreciated, thanks for sharing
Ballanced views appreciated, thanks for sharing