Spanish ATC
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To Uniform and Greenpilots: that's the attitude! And now if you could please write a letter to Aena's management about how unprofessional Spanish ATC has become and how stressful and inefficient it is to fly between the Pyrenees and Portugal...
To Flowman: there's a general strike tomorrow in Spain. But air traffic control is considered such an important and essential service that 100% of control working positions are going to be open. That means that Spanish ATC personnel are being denied the right to strike.
To Flowman: there's a general strike tomorrow in Spain. But air traffic control is considered such an important and essential service that 100% of control working positions are going to be open. That means that Spanish ATC personnel are being denied the right to strike.
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Amigo ATC, you mean you don't have the courage to go on full strike.
Carmen and Pedro who saved up the whole year to go on holiday would not be so forgiving as we pilots are if they see their holiday flights cancelled because Amigo and Friends are not so happy with their 200.000 euros a year in a country which has an unemployment rate of more than 20% at the moment.
Talking about attitude.....
BTW, I think you guys have more stress than we at the moment so maybe you can write the letter to AENA (I'm sure if I write him in English they won't understand anyway)
Hasta Luego.
Carmen and Pedro who saved up the whole year to go on holiday would not be so forgiving as we pilots are if they see their holiday flights cancelled because Amigo and Friends are not so happy with their 200.000 euros a year in a country which has an unemployment rate of more than 20% at the moment.
Talking about attitude.....
BTW, I think you guys have more stress than we at the moment so maybe you can write the letter to AENA (I'm sure if I write him in English they won't understand anyway)
Hasta Luego.
Last edited by uniform; 29th Sep 2010 at 07:50.
Pilot of the Airwaves
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Most of the Country is open as normal. The "general" strike is sporadic and has not been well supported.
...and by the way Spanish is spelt with just one "n" , RMC.
...and by the way Spanish is spelt with just one "n" , RMC.
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Lovely flight to Spain and back today, great weather over Spain, nice quiet airways, a good turn around all on time.
Lots of gold harps parked up though. Pax were very complementry that the service had run.
Lots of gold harps parked up though. Pax were very complementry that the service had run.
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Small update:
Last tuesday AENA announced they would hire 47 new atcos (the latest group freshly minted at the state sponsored atco-school, Senasa) effective 1st of October just to withdraw that announcement two days later.
No explanation has been provided but most bet this is the consecuence of another little secret in the dark halls of Aena. All ATC trainers in spain must have a trainer's licence and appropriate trainer formation. Last month one of Aena's directors informed the spanish security agency that they had not enough instructors in smaller towers to guarantee training so they were going to force any atco with 6+ months experience to provide training to the newbies...
All atcos who have recieved this order have refused and filed legal action against that blatant disregard for safety.
And the war against Aena goes on... we shall never surrender!
Last tuesday AENA announced they would hire 47 new atcos (the latest group freshly minted at the state sponsored atco-school, Senasa) effective 1st of October just to withdraw that announcement two days later.
No explanation has been provided but most bet this is the consecuence of another little secret in the dark halls of Aena. All ATC trainers in spain must have a trainer's licence and appropriate trainer formation. Last month one of Aena's directors informed the spanish security agency that they had not enough instructors in smaller towers to guarantee training so they were going to force any atco with 6+ months experience to provide training to the newbies...
All atcos who have recieved this order have refused and filed legal action against that blatant disregard for safety.
And the war against Aena goes on... we shall never surrender!
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There's Always A Way Around ...
If Spanish ATC continue to be so difficult I might have to consider asking for a little "tactical weather avoidance" on my next "Tour De La Costa" SID out of Malaga 
ATC Amigo you might wish to consider that we all have to negotiate with our own companies over Terms & Conditions but somehow don't inconvenience your ATC Operation whilst doing it.
Hasta La Vista ....
ATC Amigo you might wish to consider that we all have to negotiate with our own companies over Terms & Conditions but somehow don't inconvenience your ATC Operation whilst doing it.
Hasta La Vista ....
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As if the spanish coast weren't beautiful enough... you know, most of your passengers actually pay to see it, just relax and enjoy the view
In any case, when pilots negotiate their T&C they tend to hold passengers hostage ...
Lufthansa strike threatens global pain - CNN.com
Controllers are ultimately doing the same, and unfortunately in both cases it does have a certain logic to it... if you can't talk your boss into certain concessions, then perhaps the customers may have enough leverage
In any case, when pilots negotiate their T&C they tend to hold passengers hostage ...
Lufthansa strike threatens global pain - CNN.com
Controllers are ultimately doing the same, and unfortunately in both cases it does have a certain logic to it... if you can't talk your boss into certain concessions, then perhaps the customers may have enough leverage
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Controllers are ultimately doing the same, and unfortunately in both cases it does have a certain logic to it... if you can't talk your boss into certain concessions, then perhaps the customers may have enough leverage
Level playing field is too much to ask I know - but, by your own logic, if us non-nationals keeping asking often enough, perhaps we will achieve it - you may even then get us on side to apply our leverage!
Last edited by kick the tires; 5th Oct 2010 at 06:31.
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Just a small update:
Yesterday a few employees of Ineco (a subsiduary of Aena... or as we say here "same dog with different necklace") entered Madrid ACC in order to perform a job-audit... while to my knowledge no one had any atco experience.
After the atcos refused (while at the same time still controlling) Aena threatened with disciplinary action and possible job termination for all those present.
As you can imagine things got a bit
heated and for a while the possibility that the whole of Madrid FIR/UIR would be closed seemed very close at hand. (Both Aena and Usca blame the other part for that... as I wasn't there I could not say for sure)
AENA amenaza con cerrar el espacio aéreo de Madrid si los controladores no admiten la fiscalización de su trabajo | Controladores aéreos españoles
Fly safe and if you happen to go to/over Spain I would load some extra fuel and patience... you'll never know...
Yesterday a few employees of Ineco (a subsiduary of Aena... or as we say here "same dog with different necklace") entered Madrid ACC in order to perform a job-audit... while to my knowledge no one had any atco experience.
After the atcos refused (while at the same time still controlling) Aena threatened with disciplinary action and possible job termination for all those present.
As you can imagine things got a bit
heated and for a while the possibility that the whole of Madrid FIR/UIR would be closed seemed very close at hand. (Both Aena and Usca blame the other part for that... as I wasn't there I could not say for sure)AENA amenaza con cerrar el espacio aéreo de Madrid si los controladores no admiten la fiscalización de su trabajo | Controladores aéreos españoles
Fly safe and if you happen to go to/over Spain I would load some extra fuel and patience... you'll never know...
I am a little surprized at all this criticism of our spanish ATC comrades on this forum, afterall they do a very bad job under very difficult circumstances.....
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I'm sorry not to contribute towards the ATC side of Spain with this post. But after living there for 9 years, I can give an opinion or two about their culture.
I've always considered Spain a very bureaucratic country. Not just the government, but each individual finds the need to categorize actions in a formal manner...
And by reading most of these threads, I am not surprised to see that the Spanish ATC system is completely bureaucratic and inflexible. Reading about Spanish ATCs not allowing a pilot to fly at higher levels because he/her filed in a low level flight brings back memories of everyday issues with paperwork and civil servants in Spain.
I really don't understand how some people come to think that the Spanish are a relaxed country full of fun and parties.
I've always considered Spain a very bureaucratic country. Not just the government, but each individual finds the need to categorize actions in a formal manner...
And by reading most of these threads, I am not surprised to see that the Spanish ATC system is completely bureaucratic and inflexible. Reading about Spanish ATCs not allowing a pilot to fly at higher levels because he/her filed in a low level flight brings back memories of everyday issues with paperwork and civil servants in Spain.
I really don't understand how some people come to think that the Spanish are a relaxed country full of fun and parties.
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Wife and I lived there for 5 and half years until 2005. Generally (not always obviously) put a Spaniard behind a desk or in a uniform and he/she becomes a tyrant who never admits a mistake. Each and every one insists their colleague (who sent you away for the correct forms last week) was wrong and he/she is correct. Go and get the right ones again. You had to queue at 5 or 6 in the morning to get a numbered ticket to be seen in the office which opened at 9. Tickets (a few) were handed out at 8.30 and reps of other nationalities handed out bribes to get large numbers of tickets. The rest were told to come back next day/week. They build ramps for the disabled in pavements and then do not ticket those parked illegally in front of them but charge others in rural areas for parking outside their own properties. Telefonica (the telephone company) sent out modems to hundreds of thousands of foreigners which were not compatible with their current equipment. It didn't happen to Spanish subscribers. I could go on for hours. Sorry if this seems an anti-Spanish rant but you can see why we moved back to the UK. Have a Google and see how many Spanish town mayors are in prison for corruption.
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Living In Spain
I know a little off message but cannot agree JWP1938 about Spain. Lived here now for three years and not too many complaints - not perfect but where is. The people are so much more friendly from the miserable lot I left behind in the UK and the weather is far better plus the food etc and its cheaper. I have never had to pay to park my car yet (I do not live in a large city) - sorry you don't park your car you bring to a halt!
Where can you get a coffee or something a little stronger at nine'clock in the morning waiting for the supermarket to open at 9.30! To me they have the right attitude - the family comes first, then food followed by the work ethic - more important things than working. There has been a lot of corruption here over the last few years I grant you but would you say the UK was whiter than white - I don't think so.
It is your choice to go back to the UK and be ripped off like nobody's business with people running round like headless chickens - good luck to you as I sit out on the veranda at 9 o'clock in the morning with the sun shining down with the temperature at 20 degC towards the end of October!
Where can you get a coffee or something a little stronger at nine'clock in the morning waiting for the supermarket to open at 9.30! To me they have the right attitude - the family comes first, then food followed by the work ethic - more important things than working. There has been a lot of corruption here over the last few years I grant you but would you say the UK was whiter than white - I don't think so.
It is your choice to go back to the UK and be ripped off like nobody's business with people running round like headless chickens - good luck to you as I sit out on the veranda at 9 o'clock in the morning with the sun shining down with the temperature at 20 degC towards the end of October!
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Originally Posted by JWP1938
Have a Google and see how many Spanish town mayors are in prison for corruption
Anyway, I could talk about criminallity in UK, or their teen pregnancy rate, or their suicide rate...
but it seems to me none of this would be of any interest or use to this topic so let's go back to talk about something more professional.If you have flown this morning over the Canary islands you may have had severe delays. he reason for this is that AENA had decided to shut down one of the VORs (initially scheduled for 15th November) but many ATCOs did not have time to required training on alternate procedures.
With blatant disregard for elemental safety, AENA ordered controllers to their posts regardles of whether they had the training for it. Failure to comply was threathened with immediate job termination (they brought lawyers and notarys).
Issue is still not resolved and could possibly lead to a chain reaction across all the spanish workcenters.
Graves incidentes en el Centro de Control de Canarias y ciberataque a este servidor: actualizaciones horarias | Controladores aéreos españoles
Good luck and fly safe.
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Off thread I know but most Catalans would agree with JWP1938. I've lived here for 17 years now and the locals are a different breed to the rest of Spain (provided you speak or try to speak Catalan, of course, and why not ? It's their country).
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Hi again amigos,
To OFSO, FWIW I'm not Catalan but I work at a Catalan ATC facility and have been living in Catalonia for 20+ years and my wife and my daughters are Catalan. Thanks for your kind words but I have to say that statistics show Barcelona ACC is leading Madrid ACC in the number of en-route minutes of delay although we handle significantly less traffic.
With a compulsory, non-negociated increase in compulsory working hours of about 50% for Spanish ATC (believe me, it's true) and a salary cut of around 50%, how could Aena's managers not foresee that the discontent of the ATC workforce would cause a noticeable decline of service quality? The truth is that Aena's customers (that is, airlines and passengers) are the ones who are paying the consequences: no fuel savings, no RFLs, no direct routes, no flexibility, no continous climb/descent... I don't even say 'hello' anymore to pilots on first radio contact!
The airlines should demand an explanation from Aena for this sudden decrease in punctuality and quality of service.
To OFSO, FWIW I'm not Catalan but I work at a Catalan ATC facility and have been living in Catalonia for 20+ years and my wife and my daughters are Catalan. Thanks for your kind words but I have to say that statistics show Barcelona ACC is leading Madrid ACC in the number of en-route minutes of delay although we handle significantly less traffic.
With a compulsory, non-negociated increase in compulsory working hours of about 50% for Spanish ATC (believe me, it's true) and a salary cut of around 50%, how could Aena's managers not foresee that the discontent of the ATC workforce would cause a noticeable decline of service quality? The truth is that Aena's customers (that is, airlines and passengers) are the ones who are paying the consequences: no fuel savings, no RFLs, no direct routes, no flexibility, no continous climb/descent... I don't even say 'hello' anymore to pilots on first radio contact!
The airlines should demand an explanation from Aena for this sudden decrease in punctuality and quality of service.