Spanish ATC
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Thanks to Madrid ATC for the past 3 days.
Having flown in and out of Madrid for the past 3 days, in some horrendous storms, ATC have been brilliant! They accommodated our extreme deviations and height profiles, gave no priority to Spanish aircraft, asked for our opinion before giving vectors and some even used speed control by way of making spaces between aircraft!
It was truly enlightening. They CAN do it! Perhaps if they take some of their effort away from vectoring Spanish aircraft at the expense of non-nationals, they would provide a high class service on a daily basis.
Having flown in and out of Madrid for the past 3 days, in some horrendous storms, ATC have been brilliant! They accommodated our extreme deviations and height profiles, gave no priority to Spanish aircraft, asked for our opinion before giving vectors and some even used speed control by way of making spaces between aircraft!
It was truly enlightening. They CAN do it! Perhaps if they take some of their effort away from vectoring Spanish aircraft at the expense of non-nationals, they would provide a high class service on a daily basis.
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"Spanish strike" and Aena's controllers
Yes, there was Spanish flu and now there's Spanish strike. Unlike the French, who go in all-out, transparent strikes just about every week, Spanish workers have another way of showing their dissatisfaction with their employers: low professional standards.
And that's just what us Spanish controllers, all employed by Aena, are doing. We're not giving DCTs or FLs other than the one originally filed simply because we're deeply dissatisfied with our working conditions. For almost a year, Aena's been treating us like s*it, telling all kind of lies in the media about us, and violating even the most basic labor rules that affect their ATC working force. Controllers have responded to that by showing a total lack of concern about professionalism in our day-to-day work. It's what some call the "Spanish strike", that is not a classical-style strike, but just a way of protesting that consists in not caring at all about quality of service. Employers such as Aena who bully their employees commit a great mistake by creating highly-unmotivated workers who learn that caring about being good professionals means nothing to the company administrators. And if those workers are fired, the ones that replace them will do exactly the same thing.
Spanish strike might also be called "resentment" or "discontent".
Honestly, guys (for you pilots and passengers in this forum), I USED TO care about my job and about doing the best I could every day at work. Not so far ago I considered myself a fairly good controller, always willing to learn, to make an effort and to provide a quality public service. But since the moment when my employer began treating me the way it's treating me, I don't give a damn about airplanes, airlines, passengers or flight crews. I PROMISE that I'll purposefully try to give a poor service to every single flight that goes through my hands until Aena gives our rightfully-gained labour rights back to us. Don't expect any help from me! And I'd say that the same applies to most of my workmates in Spanish ATC. What they've done to us is too serious to not have any consequence in the quality of service.
If you wanna avoid delays and feeling frustrated about flying, the best advice I can give is: avoid flying to, from or above Spain until Aena again learns the relationship about ethics, labour rights and motivated employees.
Thanks for reading.
Amigo ATC
And that's just what us Spanish controllers, all employed by Aena, are doing. We're not giving DCTs or FLs other than the one originally filed simply because we're deeply dissatisfied with our working conditions. For almost a year, Aena's been treating us like s*it, telling all kind of lies in the media about us, and violating even the most basic labor rules that affect their ATC working force. Controllers have responded to that by showing a total lack of concern about professionalism in our day-to-day work. It's what some call the "Spanish strike", that is not a classical-style strike, but just a way of protesting that consists in not caring at all about quality of service. Employers such as Aena who bully their employees commit a great mistake by creating highly-unmotivated workers who learn that caring about being good professionals means nothing to the company administrators. And if those workers are fired, the ones that replace them will do exactly the same thing.
Spanish strike might also be called "resentment" or "discontent".
Honestly, guys (for you pilots and passengers in this forum), I USED TO care about my job and about doing the best I could every day at work. Not so far ago I considered myself a fairly good controller, always willing to learn, to make an effort and to provide a quality public service. But since the moment when my employer began treating me the way it's treating me, I don't give a damn about airplanes, airlines, passengers or flight crews. I PROMISE that I'll purposefully try to give a poor service to every single flight that goes through my hands until Aena gives our rightfully-gained labour rights back to us. Don't expect any help from me! And I'd say that the same applies to most of my workmates in Spanish ATC. What they've done to us is too serious to not have any consequence in the quality of service.
If you wanna avoid delays and feeling frustrated about flying, the best advice I can give is: avoid flying to, from or above Spain until Aena again learns the relationship about ethics, labour rights and motivated employees.
Thanks for reading.
Amigo ATC
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Amigo ATC you are a di@k! That's the sort of attitude that's going to cause an accident but it does not surprise me one bit. I am based in Spain with the last six months and every day we put up with this crap. Only the other day in my base Madrid, which had 2 runways closed during peak hours, the tower controller was giving only one minute ten seconds separation between departing heavies and mediums! On a normal day we have 3 min separation between B738's because they are classed as heavies in Spain. I was shocked at that complete disregard for safety. Spanish ATCOS you should be ashamed of yourselves...... Bring on my base transfer before I get killed in this stupid country
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Johhny, its a wind-up. This is just a to$$er trying to cause mischief. There is no way a professional ATC'er would write something like this. On the contrary, I've found the ATC service in madrid has improved considerably over the past weeks.
What a sad person he is!
I PROMISE that I'll purposefully try to give a poor service to every single flight that goes through my hands until Aena gives our rightfully-gained labour rights back to us.
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"I PROMISE that I'll purposefully try to give a poor service to every single flight that goes through my hands until Aena gives our rightfully-gained labour rights back to us."
Having seen this just after it was posted earlier, I've waited until I 'cooled' down before replying (in order not to be 'banned' from the site!!).
All I can say is....I certainly HOPE this is only a wind up! I simply cannot believe that a professional of ANY kind would have this sort of attitude towards their job....regardless of the job, or work environment. If you don't like the environment you work in, either TALK to your superiors like an adult....or LEAVE!!
One of the highest paying jobs in my life turned out to be absolutely the worst working environment I ever experienced.....and I left after 6 weeks, to take a job with a better environment for less pay.
Having seen this just after it was posted earlier, I've waited until I 'cooled' down before replying (in order not to be 'banned' from the site!!).
All I can say is....I certainly HOPE this is only a wind up! I simply cannot believe that a professional of ANY kind would have this sort of attitude towards their job....regardless of the job, or work environment. If you don't like the environment you work in, either TALK to your superiors like an adult....or LEAVE!!
One of the highest paying jobs in my life turned out to be absolutely the worst working environment I ever experienced.....and I left after 6 weeks, to take a job with a better environment for less pay.
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I agree with the statement of kick the tyres, the other poster must be a troll...
However, while I'm sure no ATC would ever consider disregarding safety, they may look the other way in terms of economy. Also the point of giving no DCTs is to send a message to Aena in terms of "you want to have the final word in control? Fine by me, we'll do it by the book then... your book"
An example of this. Yesterday in MAD/LEMD one of the Aena staff decided to lift any incoming limitations... with the result that planes had to make holds for up to 30 minutes. ATC informed pilots what was the cause of these delays as well as the name of the person responsible for them.
Full article here: Los ATC facilitan a las tripulaciones, el teléfono del responsable de AENA del caos de ayer tarde en Barajas
And by the way in case you didn't know, we will have a general strike in Spain the 29th of september. The government and the mayor labor unions have agreed on some minimal services of:
10% of domestic flights within the peninsula
50% of domestic flights within, to or from the islands (Canary and Balears)
20% for intraeuropean flights
40% for other international flights
However, these "mayor labor unions" have close to nil representativity within aviation (Atcos, handling, pilots, etc) who have professional unions to represent their interests so these numbers may not mean anything.
However, while I'm sure no ATC would ever consider disregarding safety, they may look the other way in terms of economy. Also the point of giving no DCTs is to send a message to Aena in terms of "you want to have the final word in control? Fine by me, we'll do it by the book then... your book"
An example of this. Yesterday in MAD/LEMD one of the Aena staff decided to lift any incoming limitations... with the result that planes had to make holds for up to 30 minutes. ATC informed pilots what was the cause of these delays as well as the name of the person responsible for them.
Full article here: Los ATC facilitan a las tripulaciones, el teléfono del responsable de AENA del caos de ayer tarde en Barajas
And by the way in case you didn't know, we will have a general strike in Spain the 29th of september. The government and the mayor labor unions have agreed on some minimal services of:
10% of domestic flights within the peninsula
50% of domestic flights within, to or from the islands (Canary and Balears)
20% for intraeuropean flights
40% for other international flights
However, these "mayor labor unions" have close to nil representativity within aviation (Atcos, handling, pilots, etc) who have professional unions to represent their interests so these numbers may not mean anything.
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To Johnny Tightlips: you too! And I would never do anything that could hinder safety. I don't wanna be involved in an accident and I never play with safety. But there are many other ways to show my dissatisfaction when working on the frequency.
To Kick the tires: yes, I'm sad and in the brink of depression too. But if I take a sick leave Aena won't pay me for any of the days that I don't go to work.
To PA-28-180: hey, coincidentally I have about 80 hours as PPL in the type shown in your user name. Nice airplane, heh? About the issue, you're right, when someone is so profoundly discontent with their working conditions, they should leave. But believe me, I think that 90% of controllers in Spain feel the same way I do, do you expect all of us to suddenly leave?. It's a collective problem, not a personal one. And by the way several hundred Spanish ATC have actually asked to leave the company and are now involved in legal processes to receive a monetary compensation. Aena treats us like we're criminals but at the same time needs us. In any case, if I leave, the guy that replaces me would probably feel the same way about the job.
To Kick the tires: yes, I'm sad and in the brink of depression too. But if I take a sick leave Aena won't pay me for any of the days that I don't go to work.
To PA-28-180: hey, coincidentally I have about 80 hours as PPL in the type shown in your user name. Nice airplane, heh? About the issue, you're right, when someone is so profoundly discontent with their working conditions, they should leave. But believe me, I think that 90% of controllers in Spain feel the same way I do, do you expect all of us to suddenly leave?. It's a collective problem, not a personal one. And by the way several hundred Spanish ATC have actually asked to leave the company and are now involved in legal processes to receive a monetary compensation. Aena treats us like we're criminals but at the same time needs us. In any case, if I leave, the guy that replaces me would probably feel the same way about the job.
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Can somebody in Spain do us a favour and send the quote by Amigo ATC to the national press. If this guy is not a troll than his actions and the way he explains they work are clearly a criminal act and the individual has to be traced down. They only thing I can say is that this clown should be removed from his position before something serious happens and it's too late.
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What criminal act Uniform? No controller, Spanish or other, would ever compromise safety, as he has since confirmed. He's talking about not going out of his way to provide any service above and beyond the call of duty. It may not be music to your ears but giving you shortcuts or responding to requests which are NOT safety related is not a compulsary part of the job. In fact, ATC management (as has already been mentioned umpteen times in this thread) actively discourage such initiatives.
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Have to agree with some of the previous posters. Not to impressed with MAD atc in the past but flew there on saturday and left on sunday and nothing but profesional ATC. Enough that we were commenting on it during the flight. Clear instructions and standard communication even though we got to hold!!
I don't mind the job action, slots, no directs, and sticking to the FL's as filed is one thing, but you still do the job profesionally, this is the way to win the hearts and souls!! keep it up and good luck!!!
I don't mind the job action, slots, no directs, and sticking to the FL's as filed is one thing, but you still do the job profesionally, this is the way to win the hearts and souls!! keep it up and good luck!!!
So, just read the news that maybe they may on strike next wednesday.
After almost 4 weeks away from home, maybe those "atco's" will prevent me from seeing my wife again and deserve a deserved week off!
The airlines we are flying for are paying huge bills, also the atc-charges.
I can work live without any atco!
They THINK they need us, but its the other way around!
Thanks to us pilots they have their coffee/thee in their tower, airconditioned in summer and heated in winter, have 2 hour shifts etc etc and make (in spain) more than they deserve!!
I would say, lay them all off, and we go procedural. Ok it will get a mess, but only for a short time......
After almost 4 weeks away from home, maybe those "atco's" will prevent me from seeing my wife again and deserve a deserved week off!
The airlines we are flying for are paying huge bills, also the atc-charges.
I can work live without any atco!
They THINK they need us, but its the other way around!
Thanks to us pilots they have their coffee/thee in their tower, airconditioned in summer and heated in winter, have 2 hour shifts etc etc and make (in spain) more than they deserve!!
I would say, lay them all off, and we go procedural. Ok it will get a mess, but only for a short time......
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Hotel Tango, you clearly don't see the seriousness of the situation. We are not talking about not giving any directs anymore here (would you believe we pilots don't even care about that anymore and to tell you the truth Spain is not that big if you fly over it). This is about the lives of thousands of passengers every day. THIS IS NOT A GAME. To give an answer to your question what kind of criminal act. Ever heard about manslaughter? This is exactely what you will be in jail for when an accident happens and they find a quote like this "I don't give a damn about airplanes, airlines, passengers or flight crews. I PROMISE that I'll purposefully try to give a poor service to every single flight that goes through my hands until Aena gives our rightfully-gained labour rights back to us".
LEAVE AVIATION TO PROFESSIONALS AND GO DO SOMETHING ELSE.
LEAVE AVIATION TO PROFESSIONALS AND GO DO SOMETHING ELSE.
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Uniform, you make very bold statements, including the latest addressed to me: "you clearly don't see the seriousness of the situation". I have no idea how you come to that conclusion, just as the manner in which you chose to interpret Amigo ATC's post - despite his own response that he wasn't speaking about safety. I simply attempted to point out that there are other options open to disgruntled employees which is neither illegal nor a threat to safety. Taking into account that he wasn't expressing himself in his mother tongue, I never interpreted Amigo ATC to mean that he would compromise safety. I took it to mean that he will no longer operate beyond what is legally required. If you don't like that then tell your employer that you don't want to fly in Spanish airspace!
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Listen Hotel Tango, I wouldn't be so cocky about not flying to Spain anymore. You might seem to forget that your country lives on tourism and your salary is paid by passengers coming to Spain by plane. If the situation like this continues your dream might come true and people will go somewhere else on holidays....
Anyway, I'm going to spend some moments with my family now as I've wasted already enough time in holdings and holding points....
Anyway, I'm going to spend some moments with my family now as I've wasted already enough time in holdings and holding points....
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I would say, lay them all off, and we go procedural.
For info Procedural control is done by controllers as well, the difference between radar and procedural is surveillance, larger separation satndards as a result and therefore a drastic reduction in sector and runway capacities.
What you probably wanted to say is TIBA procedures, for which you need no ground infrastrucute, also know as " auto-info" or the " Australian solution ". Works not too bad for up to 10 aircraft per hour. I am sure MOL will like those kind of capacities for his winter schedule.
Just back from BCN yesterday, on time, nice to the point ATC on the R/T, STAR and SID of course ,and nothing to complain about.
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@Amigo ATC
Please tell us what you consider yourself now, then?
Not so far ago I considered myself a fairly good controller, always willing to learn, to make an effort and to provide a quality public service.
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Once again, MAD was a joke. Seriously, I am really tolerant, but the environment there...
We got a slot due to "environmental reasons" (20 mins late). Once we got there, we found our that the only possible "environmental reason" was the closure of one of the arrival runways...
Last Saturday we went there, two runways closed. Ground staff told us that it was propably due to the planned flights of the LH A380 to PMI. MAD would surely be one of the diversion airports and was appearently not ready to accommodate the A380. That is what they told us... Anyway, everybody got a slot, due to airport restrictions. Things is that you can not improve it when ready, as Slots are handled by Brussels, but ATC will not send a ready message, due to the fact that it is a local restriction. So no matter who was ready or not, everyone had to wait for a slot that was given without any sense. Some aircraft had to wait for nearly 2 hours, while others didn't make their slot. Aircraft that also had restrictions en-route where not allowed to send ready messages as well... It was totally ridiculous and many people complained.
Once at the runway (at slot time), we had about 15 !!! aircraft waiting at the same time. Interestingly many of the Iberia aircraft did not have slots or did not care, as we insisted in over-taking others (due to slot...) and it worked. TWR controller was a poor chap, but did not seem to have a plan who goes first and so on.
You know when someone says: "Hey, its Africa!". Same goes for Madrid...
We got a slot due to "environmental reasons" (20 mins late). Once we got there, we found our that the only possible "environmental reason" was the closure of one of the arrival runways...
Last Saturday we went there, two runways closed. Ground staff told us that it was propably due to the planned flights of the LH A380 to PMI. MAD would surely be one of the diversion airports and was appearently not ready to accommodate the A380. That is what they told us... Anyway, everybody got a slot, due to airport restrictions. Things is that you can not improve it when ready, as Slots are handled by Brussels, but ATC will not send a ready message, due to the fact that it is a local restriction. So no matter who was ready or not, everyone had to wait for a slot that was given without any sense. Some aircraft had to wait for nearly 2 hours, while others didn't make their slot. Aircraft that also had restrictions en-route where not allowed to send ready messages as well... It was totally ridiculous and many people complained.
Once at the runway (at slot time), we had about 15 !!! aircraft waiting at the same time. Interestingly many of the Iberia aircraft did not have slots or did not care, as we insisted in over-taking others (due to slot...) and it worked. TWR controller was a poor chap, but did not seem to have a plan who goes first and so on.
You know when someone says: "Hey, its Africa!". Same goes for Madrid...
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As I know this has been a thread regarding other issues I am asking for any valid input regarding the possibility of ATC industrial action on 29 September. Our flight is corporate destined for LETO (Torrejon) from the States. ETA in the later part of the morning.
Would it be very unlikely that inbound flights are affected to any large degree ie., diversion, very long holds?
Would it be very unlikely that inbound flights are affected to any large degree ie., diversion, very long holds?
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For RAWLAW
From the CFMU Network Operations Portal
https://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUB...pec/index.html :
Industrial action is scheduled to commence at 22h00 UTC (midnight local) in the Spanish transport sector and will last for 24 hours.
MINISTERIO DE FORMENTO has established a minimum service ensuring the wservice provided at ACCs, TACCs, TWRs and airports. This minimum services do not guarantee the operation of all scheduled flights.
Important inter-island routes, between Spain and the European capitals, and outside European destinations, and domestic flights where other transport means are not available have been prioritised.
Disruption to flights caused by agencies other than ATC (handling, security etc.) is anticipated, but ATS service will be provided to those aircraft that are able to operate.
Overflights are not directly affected by strike action but all flights can be subject to ATFCM measures where needed (listed flights, non-Spanish operators and overflights).
It is anticipated that the ATS service level may offer sufficient capacity for all flights allowed to operate or not affected by the decree.
More information will be published when available.
From the CFMU Network Operations Portal
https://www.cfmu.eurocontrol.int/PUB...pec/index.html :
Industrial action is scheduled to commence at 22h00 UTC (midnight local) in the Spanish transport sector and will last for 24 hours.
MINISTERIO DE FORMENTO has established a minimum service ensuring the wservice provided at ACCs, TACCs, TWRs and airports. This minimum services do not guarantee the operation of all scheduled flights.
Important inter-island routes, between Spain and the European capitals, and outside European destinations, and domestic flights where other transport means are not available have been prioritised.
Disruption to flights caused by agencies other than ATC (handling, security etc.) is anticipated, but ATS service will be provided to those aircraft that are able to operate.
Overflights are not directly affected by strike action but all flights can be subject to ATFCM measures where needed (listed flights, non-Spanish operators and overflights).
It is anticipated that the ATS service level may offer sufficient capacity for all flights allowed to operate or not affected by the decree.
More information will be published when available.