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Uk-nats-nats-net
Why do all the snide comment on NATS NET come from ATCOS or ATSAs? They seem oblivious to the fact that personel other than them are required to run the business. I can't believe that such a group of profesionals can be so blinkered.
Re one of the comments on there at the moment under the ash article:
A company such as ours exists to provide and manage services to its customers. With regard to your comment: the air traffic control services (which I infer you believe to be the only ones we provide) are provided by utilising buildings, IT infrastructure, engineering and the ATCOs. The ATCOs are the tool used to make the service that the company provides run. One could argue that it is the ATCOs rather than the 'day workers' that are THE drain on the company finances.
I did not post that on NATS-Net because I dont want to reduce myself to petty bickering on the work intranet but seeing as PPRUNE is all about that kind of thing i put it here.
Re one of the comments on there at the moment under the ash article:
A company such as ours exists to provide and manage services to its customers. With regard to your comment: the air traffic control services (which I infer you believe to be the only ones we provide) are provided by utilising buildings, IT infrastructure, engineering and the ATCOs. The ATCOs are the tool used to make the service that the company provides run. One could argue that it is the ATCOs rather than the 'day workers' that are THE drain on the company finances.
I did not post that on NATS-Net because I dont want to reduce myself to petty bickering on the work intranet but seeing as PPRUNE is all about that kind of thing i put it here.
Last edited by Quincy M.E.; 21st Apr 2010 at 17:31.
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So are you suggesting that without the ATCO's and ATSA's we would still make a profit??????? I believe within 120 days of no aircraft we will be bust!! What does that tell you?? 
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Okay,i'll bite.
So let me get this straight,you have replied to a comment posted on our private intranet at work by writing your response on a public internet forum,even though your reply isn't particularly controversial
That's the kind of topsy turvy thinking that makes me post snide comments on the intranet
It could also be argued that every time the latest management propaganda is posted at work, it is closely followed by a wave of obsequious brown nosing from the folks at CTC which winds up the operational staff to the point that they feel obliged to rubbish it out of principle.
I'm just assuming that CTC is where you work given your attitude but I may be wrong.
So let me get this straight,you have replied to a comment posted on our private intranet at work by writing your response on a public internet forum,even though your reply isn't particularly controversial
That's the kind of topsy turvy thinking that makes me post snide comments on the intranet
It could also be argued that every time the latest management propaganda is posted at work, it is closely followed by a wave of obsequious brown nosing from the folks at CTC which winds up the operational staff to the point that they feel obliged to rubbish it out of principle.
I'm just assuming that CTC is where you work given your attitude but I may be wrong.
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rolaaand
You did not manage to get it straight.
If you read my post again you will observe that I did not post on NATS-Net because I thought that my post was controversial but because I did not want to be associated with petty bickering.
I have also confirmed my final point.
You did not manage to get it straight.
If you read my post again you will observe that I did not post on NATS-Net because I thought that my post was controversial but because I did not want to be associated with petty bickering.
I have also confirmed my final point.
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is that not the attitude that Quincy M.E. was trying to point out?! we are all in this company TOGETHER and having been on the operational and non-operational side of things, am sick and tired of the constant bickering and divide between us! The view of some operational staff (NOT all i hasten to add) that ''day-workers'' are not essential to NATS is madness as is the view from some ''day-workers'' (NOT all I hasten to add!!) that operational staff are overpaid whingers! Unfortunately, these are the people (both ''sides'') who post on NATS-net and contribute to tensions between us.
Without the day-workers/admin/management, the ATCO's/ATSA's/Engineers could not operate.
Without the ATCO's/ATSA's/Engineers, the day-workers/admin/management could not operate!
PLEASE people, lets kick this ''us and them'' idealogy out of NATS once and for all!
now expecting flak so am standing tall to take it!
Without the day-workers/admin/management, the ATCO's/ATSA's/Engineers could not operate.
Without the ATCO's/ATSA's/Engineers, the day-workers/admin/management could not operate!
PLEASE people, lets kick this ''us and them'' idealogy out of NATS once and for all!
now expecting flak so am standing tall to take it!
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Quincy,
Because ATCOs and ATSAs, quite rightly, are professionals and justifiably proud of what they do.
ATC is sometimes seen as a 'sexy' job. It is often featured on TV and in movies.
Consquently, lots of people want to be ATCOs. many of these people, for various reasons cannot be ATCOs. Some of these people find a 'way in', and set themselves an agenda:-
I can't join this 'exclusive club', so how can I spoil it for those who are members? The outgoing CEO of NATS, who, according to a newspaper article, "fell in love with Swanwick", is a possible example here.
When I was at school, I, (along with several of my classmates), wanted to be an airline pilot.
Of that group, only one made it, albeit after years of hard work. The rest of us did not infiltrate the airline industry and 'take it out' on pilots.
Many years ago, NATS, along with other ATC providers, changed from an 'administered', to a 'managed', culture, not a good move. Many first class 'support staff' were disposed of, only to be replaced with other (non-shiftworking) support staff with bizarre job titles who simply haven't a clue about 'Air Traffic Control', which, at the end of the day is what it's all about.
One could argue it was more efficient years ago.
Many operational ATC staff, (some of whom have completed courses of training harder than many university degrees), do not react positively to the contempt with which they are sometimes treated, by those who were quick to remove their headsets, or worse still, have never worn them.
On similar lines, the NHS has, allegedly, 50,000 'managers'.
There is also a possible analogy here with our 'national sport'.
In todays 'dumbed-down' UK PLC, professional footballers are trumpeted as heroes, (see local press for details). My local football club employs many people in various support roles, but without the 11 'heroes' running around on the pitch generating the income, all the others would not have jobs.
Just a few random thoughts.
P.S. A light dusting of volcanic material is now present on cars parked on the slopes of Mt Belzoni. I wish you all well in these uncertain times.
P.P.S. As far as I am aware, Belzoni is not a volcano, (or is it)?
Because ATCOs and ATSAs, quite rightly, are professionals and justifiably proud of what they do.
ATC is sometimes seen as a 'sexy' job. It is often featured on TV and in movies.
Consquently, lots of people want to be ATCOs. many of these people, for various reasons cannot be ATCOs. Some of these people find a 'way in', and set themselves an agenda:-
I can't join this 'exclusive club', so how can I spoil it for those who are members? The outgoing CEO of NATS, who, according to a newspaper article, "fell in love with Swanwick", is a possible example here.
When I was at school, I, (along with several of my classmates), wanted to be an airline pilot.
Of that group, only one made it, albeit after years of hard work. The rest of us did not infiltrate the airline industry and 'take it out' on pilots.
Many years ago, NATS, along with other ATC providers, changed from an 'administered', to a 'managed', culture, not a good move. Many first class 'support staff' were disposed of, only to be replaced with other (non-shiftworking) support staff with bizarre job titles who simply haven't a clue about 'Air Traffic Control', which, at the end of the day is what it's all about.
One could argue it was more efficient years ago.
Many operational ATC staff, (some of whom have completed courses of training harder than many university degrees), do not react positively to the contempt with which they are sometimes treated, by those who were quick to remove their headsets, or worse still, have never worn them.
On similar lines, the NHS has, allegedly, 50,000 'managers'.
There is also a possible analogy here with our 'national sport'.
In todays 'dumbed-down' UK PLC, professional footballers are trumpeted as heroes, (see local press for details). My local football club employs many people in various support roles, but without the 11 'heroes' running around on the pitch generating the income, all the others would not have jobs.
Just a few random thoughts.
P.S. A light dusting of volcanic material is now present on cars parked on the slopes of Mt Belzoni. I wish you all well in these uncertain times.
P.P.S. As far as I am aware, Belzoni is not a volcano, (or is it)?
Last edited by ZOOKER; 19th Apr 2010 at 11:26.
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PLEASE people, lets kick this ''us and them'' idealogy out of NATS once and for all!
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Originally Posted by ZOOKER
...Because ATCOs and ATSAs, quite rightly, are professionals and justifiably proud of what they do.
Originally Posted by ZOOKER
...support staff with bizarre job titles who simply haven't a clue about 'Air Traffic Control', which, at the end of the day is what it's all about.
...do not react positively to the contempt with which they are sometimes treated
Probably a lot of it stems from the type of personality that makes us controllers (I'm in Aus but work with a few ex-NATS controllers & they're no different).
Are you immediately relevant to the job I'm doing? No? Then don't bother me I'm busy separating aircraft.
Are you interfering with administrative tasks that aren't immediately relevant to the job I'm doing? Yes? Then don't bother me I'm busy separating aircraft.
Are you continually implementing the latest management fads that aren't relevant to helping me with the job I'm doing? Yes? The don't bother me I'm busy separating aircraft.
Do you get the picture? We tend to be focused, opinionated & if you aren't directly helping us you're at best a distraction, or a positive hindrance.
For better or worse that's the way we are & what makes us controllers. It's the nature of the beast. Many of us have long memories of being dicked around by decades of organisational change that has done nothing to help us do our job, so it's hardly surprising we don't appreciate anything similar.
Quincy, you say your role could exist without ATCOs, so from the focused controller perspective you aren't immediately relevant & thus a distraction or worse. And we'll tend to tell you so.
Are you immediately relevant to the job I'm doing? No? Then don't bother me I'm busy separating aircraft.
Are you interfering with administrative tasks that aren't immediately relevant to the job I'm doing? Yes? Then don't bother me I'm busy separating aircraft.
Are you continually implementing the latest management fads that aren't relevant to helping me with the job I'm doing? Yes? The don't bother me I'm busy separating aircraft.
Do you get the picture? We tend to be focused, opinionated & if you aren't directly helping us you're at best a distraction, or a positive hindrance.
For better or worse that's the way we are & what makes us controllers. It's the nature of the beast. Many of us have long memories of being dicked around by decades of organisational change that has done nothing to help us do our job, so it's hardly surprising we don't appreciate anything similar.
Quincy, you say your role could exist without ATCOs, so from the focused controller perspective you aren't immediately relevant & thus a distraction or worse. And we'll tend to tell you so.
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le pingouin, it is that attitude that forces the divide. I understand that ATCO's need to concentrate on controlling and anything else is a distraction, but what about when they come off console? Do they really need to belittle/moan/make snide comments about the rest of the buisness? As I said in my last post, the company is not just ATCO's and it is not just day-workers/management, we are all needed to run it one way or another and the sooner we start realising that and cutting each other some slack, the sooner the attitudes of ''us and them'' will be wiped out.
slowclimber I totally agree! I've seen the way some colleagues treat outside ATCers and am sometimes appalled at the way they do.
slowclimber I totally agree! I've seen the way some colleagues treat outside ATCers and am sometimes appalled at the way they do.
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Originally Posted by Qunicy M.E.
There is a lot more going on that just controlling, its just not that simple anymore.
The question "What about when an ATCO comes off the console". If they have just sat their and worked his or her arse off providing the safest, most efficeint service possible it's almost an insult to be met by the latest propaganda that someone has dreamed up to boost productivity or to ensure we are providing our customers blah blah blah cost effective blah blah blah.
Angrel, it's not entirely "attitude". As I mentioned it's part of the personality that tends to make a controller - we don't make good corporate citizens. They've been trying that experiment down here in Oz & it's been failing miserably.
Cutting slack? The problem with that is there's always a management type prepared to tug good & hard on any slack cut & take advantage. Been there, done that, been done over. Ask them to drop that attitude........
Cutting slack? The problem with that is there's always a management type prepared to tug good & hard on any slack cut & take advantage. Been there, done that, been done over. Ask them to drop that attitude........
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Quincy,
"There is a lot more going on that just controlling, its just not that simple anymore".
SPOT ON!!!
Apart from your p*ss-poor command of the English Language, you seem to have hit the nail on the head.
Presently, thanks to Eyjafjallajokull, there is no controlling going on, - ANYWHERE.
"There is a lot more going on that just controlling, its just not that simple anymore".
SPOT ON!!!
Apart from your p*ss-poor command of the English Language, you seem to have hit the nail on the head.
Presently, thanks to Eyjafjallajokull, there is no controlling going on, - ANYWHERE.
More than just an ATCO
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Sings, "Have you any dirty washing mother dear?"
Must be a lot of bored people out there
Can this be moved to your private forum here?
Must be a lot of bored people out there
Can this be moved to your private forum here?
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Completely agree Lon More. This post really should have been started in the NATS forum.
On topic, I think the operational staff get really fed up when announcements about things like AMAN going live were met with dozens of comments congratulating the team, and much back-slapping from the CTC guys, only to find that the controllers are having to ignore it because it's bleeding useless.
On topic, I think the operational staff get really fed up when announcements about things like AMAN going live were met with dozens of comments congratulating the team, and much back-slapping from the CTC guys, only to find that the controllers are having to ignore it because it's bleeding useless.
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My role could exist whithout ATCOs and vice versa
Now i undertsand there has to be lots of different roles within the company some that interact with the frontline staff and some that don't, and as a company we need to make an effort to understand each other's jobs.
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Quite agree 1985. Quincy you could not do your job if there is no ATCO's.
The controllers are being given new ideas such as what we are supposed to do during our breaks and "did you know a 747 is more economical in descent at 270kts than 320kts". Well actually yes i do know that because its my job to know.
We are getting all these new guidelines from people who are trying to save their own jobs in this troubled climate and they are doing so without ever visiting the ops room. This is why the attitude exists.
I suggest that any non ATCO who assumes that all we do is complain come and have a look when it is really busy or there is an emergency going on. It is always dealt with professionally and then try to imagine that someone who has no idea what goes on daily has told you to have a power nap or go to the post office!!!
We all need to understand that everybody has a tough job in different environments but lets not forget that the company will not EXIST without ATCO's and the company would not RUN without the admin workers.
The controllers are being given new ideas such as what we are supposed to do during our breaks and "did you know a 747 is more economical in descent at 270kts than 320kts". Well actually yes i do know that because its my job to know.
We are getting all these new guidelines from people who are trying to save their own jobs in this troubled climate and they are doing so without ever visiting the ops room. This is why the attitude exists.
I suggest that any non ATCO who assumes that all we do is complain come and have a look when it is really busy or there is an emergency going on. It is always dealt with professionally and then try to imagine that someone who has no idea what goes on daily has told you to have a power nap or go to the post office!!!
We all need to understand that everybody has a tough job in different environments but lets not forget that the company will not EXIST without ATCO's and the company would not RUN without the admin workers.
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Originally Posted by CRR
BUT they are the only ones who are ever held accountable for their actions.
Originally Posted by various posters
Can this be moved to your private forum here?
Originally Posted by less than 20
Quincy you could not do your job if there is no ATCO's.
I suggest that any non ATCO who assumes that all we do is complain come and have a look when it is really busy or there is an emergency going on. It is always dealt with professionally and then try to imagine that someone who has no idea what goes on daily has told you to have a power nap or go to the post office!!!
I suggest that any non ATCO who assumes that all we do is complain come and have a look when it is really busy or there is an emergency going on. It is always dealt with professionally and then try to imagine that someone who has no idea what goes on daily has told you to have a power nap or go to the post office!!!
Also I should point out I used to be operational and have been on many trips to other operational units and have witnessed an emergency going on. So what is your point?
Originally Posted by 1985
NATS is an Air Navigation Service Provider.
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What is your safety critical role anyway Quincy? To know what you actually do for a living would put this pointless debate a bit more in context.
Speaking of drain on the resources... natsnet is exactly one of them! I have no idea how many people are occupied by the running of it, but we could easily do without it. It's completely useless, and it only generates that feeling of corporate propaganda and management spin that is exactly what seems to alienate and frustrate operational staff. I am not interested in reading what my CEO has been up to. I believe he's been up to doing is job, which is exactly what I have been doing too! I trust he's doing it to the best of his abilities, which is also what the rest of the workers have been doing.
To be honest, in order to do my job efficiently and safely, I don't even need to know who my CEO is.
regards