Irish Air Traffic Controllers to be suspended
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am i stupid?
Sober Lark
the pension terms and benefits i enjoy are the ones MY MANAGEMENT offered me.
Was I stupid to accept them?
If you find them so disgusting complain to the IAA, not me
the pension terms and benefits i enjoy are the ones MY MANAGEMENT offered me.
Was I stupid to accept them?
If you find them so disgusting complain to the IAA, not me
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"Was I stupid to accept them?"
No, you weren't quite stupid as you only needed five subjects with a grade C in two of them.
You lot just pissed me off holding me up for six hours the other day so don't expect me to have any sympathy for your imaginary unsatisfactory working conditions.
Why do smart people allow themselves to be lead by stupid people?
No, you weren't quite stupid as you only needed five subjects with a grade C in two of them.
You lot just pissed me off holding me up for six hours the other day so don't expect me to have any sympathy for your imaginary unsatisfactory working conditions.
Why do smart people allow themselves to be lead by stupid people?
Someone once said that the best lies are those based on half-truths...Gruppen Fuehrer O`Learhmann`s latest pronouncements would appear to be a case in point - "...ATC demands for a 6% wage rise..."
Spin, spin, spin.
Let`s just say (hypothetically?) your union has agreed with the employer to a 6% pay increase in return for (in full or in part) implementing new procedures and technology, then the employer unilaterally reneges on their part of the industrial agreement instrumentbut still expects the implementations to go ahead. Are you kidding me, how would you feel?
And all, please stop talking about the pay scales (albeit very fanciful ones, I`m sure all the controller dudes in Paddy-land would be more than happy to be on the quoted supposed salaries). Whether one has a burner and 200 people strapped to one`s bottom, or you are sitting in a dungeon somewhere making sure all those burners do not swap paint, it is not unreasonable to expect above-average remuneration in recognition of the work being performed.
Spin, spin, spin.
Let`s just say (hypothetically?) your union has agreed with the employer to a 6% pay increase in return for (in full or in part) implementing new procedures and technology, then the employer unilaterally reneges on their part of the industrial agreement instrumentbut still expects the implementations to go ahead. Are you kidding me, how would you feel?
And all, please stop talking about the pay scales (albeit very fanciful ones, I`m sure all the controller dudes in Paddy-land would be more than happy to be on the quoted supposed salaries). Whether one has a burner and 200 people strapped to one`s bottom, or you are sitting in a dungeon somewhere making sure all those burners do not swap paint, it is not unreasonable to expect above-average remuneration in recognition of the work being performed.
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How much do think management in the IAA earn?
ATC is a highly-skilled job, they work everyday of the year. They deserve to be paid well.
They keep the country going, as they have shown us... Their salary isn't close to those of managers, in the IAA, the DAA or anywhere else.
ATC is a highly-skilled job, they work everyday of the year. They deserve to be paid well.
They keep the country going, as they have shown us... Their salary isn't close to those of managers, in the IAA, the DAA or anywhere else.
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I don't know how much your bosses earn. Of course everyone feels they deserve to be paid well but the rest of us have realistic expectations when you lot have your heads buried in the sand by wanting more. It is like some soldier coming out of the jungle not knowing the war is over. Which planet are you on? Worse still your attitude of satisfied arrogance when you think you can 'keep the country going' by shutting it down galls us.
You have illustrated a fantastic capacity for denial. Live register numbers are rocketing, we have disorder in the banking sector here, we need to save at least €2 billion in public expenditure etc and there is massive uncertainty of a recovery and you feel because you are unique, work every day of the year etc you deserve to be paid well. Come on get real. You are paid well. Too well. Your management are telling you so. The airlines using your services are telling you so and now the public are telling you so.
Like I said you're a smart bunch but how can you in these times of close to economic disaster be so stupid as to allow yourselves to be lead by down the gutters by IMPACT who are prepared to sacrifice the interests of the country to further feather your nests?
You have illustrated a fantastic capacity for denial. Live register numbers are rocketing, we have disorder in the banking sector here, we need to save at least €2 billion in public expenditure etc and there is massive uncertainty of a recovery and you feel because you are unique, work every day of the year etc you deserve to be paid well. Come on get real. You are paid well. Too well. Your management are telling you so. The airlines using your services are telling you so and now the public are telling you so.
Like I said you're a smart bunch but how can you in these times of close to economic disaster be so stupid as to allow yourselves to be lead by down the gutters by IMPACT who are prepared to sacrifice the interests of the country to further feather your nests?
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Hi guys, Prstwick was boring. 
Trying to understand the issues, am I correct with the following?
IAA want to introduce new kit/procedures. I presume that, like any developed nation, they will be following a strict safety management process whenever introducing 'change'. It isn't clear to me where this process currently stands; has the change been implemented?
A number (12?) controllers are suspended. In the UK an employer will only suspend an employee if the employer's legal team are absolutely sure that the suspensions are within the law. Can anyone say why these controllers were suspended? What had they refused to do?
The rest is just like many other industrial disputes. The union gets involved and members walkout in support of their colleagues.
Forgive me if I am wrong or have missed some salient points, but I'm trying to get my head around why a whole nation can be held to economic ransom (bearing in mind you have a crap economy right now) because you chaps are sure you are 'right' (I honestly don't have a view whether you are or not). Where will it all go from here? How many controllers did Ronald Regan sack in 1981?
Trying to understand the issues, am I correct with the following?
IAA want to introduce new kit/procedures. I presume that, like any developed nation, they will be following a strict safety management process whenever introducing 'change'. It isn't clear to me where this process currently stands; has the change been implemented?
A number (12?) controllers are suspended. In the UK an employer will only suspend an employee if the employer's legal team are absolutely sure that the suspensions are within the law. Can anyone say why these controllers were suspended? What had they refused to do?
The rest is just like many other industrial disputes. The union gets involved and members walkout in support of their colleagues.
Forgive me if I am wrong or have missed some salient points, but I'm trying to get my head around why a whole nation can be held to economic ransom (bearing in mind you have a crap economy right now) because you chaps are sure you are 'right' (I honestly don't have a view whether you are or not). Where will it all go from here? How many controllers did Ronald Regan sack in 1981?
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Let's not get distracted here. Until the other day, no one objected to the salaries, the hours, the pensions ATC earned. No one knew. But you deserve to be well paid simple as that, just like pilots as it happens.
Then you walked out with one day's notice. With utter disdain for the people, who use your service and the strategic interests of this country. Which even you must realise is in deep trouble. You used your power in the most arrogant way possible. You shoved it in the faces of everyone in this country. But in doing so you exposed yourselves. You handed a gift to the IAA and MOL and others. The government knows about you now. They, even with the dinosaur like reactions have suddenly realised there's a tiny group of people who have to power to bring this country to it's knees, even if it wasn't already there. So the no strike option will probably be enacted in due course. The public know about you now too and your pay and wonder exactly what your problem is because of course you have failed to express it cogently. Indeed on this very forum, you refuse. An anonymous forum, I might add.
You claim you want to stop the race to the bottom. Well you are far from the bottom yet. But more, you want a 6% payrise right in the middle of a recession, with significant deflation already evident.
But of course this 'isn't about the payrise'. If I was never in a union. I might believe that. But I spent long enough in unions to know how the game is played. It's about the new technology is it? It's the old union gambit, refuse something new until extra money is paid over. Force the issue and then go on strike when someone gets suspended. It's pathetic at the best of times but these days it's downright unbelievable.
Just how out of touch are you guys with reality out there? Get your heads out of the clouds.
Here's what RTE new reported:
Look what you stirred up. You were even criticised by Eamonn Gilmore the Labour leader. Not a man noted for his right wing viewpoint.
Disproportionate it was too and an own goal of epic stupidity as seemed to be evidenced by the almost sheepish reaction of the comments to the media coming out of the meeting in Roscrea.
I have to say, you've managed something almost unique. United the country against yourselves, taken the heat of the Irish government and managed to get MOL to speak civilly in support of the IAA.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of your dispute. You and your union have mishandled it appallingly.
Well done!
Then you walked out with one day's notice. With utter disdain for the people, who use your service and the strategic interests of this country. Which even you must realise is in deep trouble. You used your power in the most arrogant way possible. You shoved it in the faces of everyone in this country. But in doing so you exposed yourselves. You handed a gift to the IAA and MOL and others. The government knows about you now. They, even with the dinosaur like reactions have suddenly realised there's a tiny group of people who have to power to bring this country to it's knees, even if it wasn't already there. So the no strike option will probably be enacted in due course. The public know about you now too and your pay and wonder exactly what your problem is because of course you have failed to express it cogently. Indeed on this very forum, you refuse. An anonymous forum, I might add.
You claim you want to stop the race to the bottom. Well you are far from the bottom yet. But more, you want a 6% payrise right in the middle of a recession, with significant deflation already evident.
But of course this 'isn't about the payrise'. If I was never in a union. I might believe that. But I spent long enough in unions to know how the game is played. It's about the new technology is it? It's the old union gambit, refuse something new until extra money is paid over. Force the issue and then go on strike when someone gets suspended. It's pathetic at the best of times but these days it's downright unbelievable.
Just how out of touch are you guys with reality out there? Get your heads out of the clouds.
Here's what RTE new reported:
Speaking in the Dáil this morning, Brian Cowen said the travelling public should not be inconvenienced over whatever differences exist at the airports.
He was replying to the Labour leader Eamon Gilmore, who said the disruption was disproportionate.
The Dáil is due to debate the dispute this afternoon.
Employers' group IBEC has criticised the stoppage and said there was no reason why the public should be held to ransom in this way.Small and medium enterprises group ISME accused the air traffic controllers of trying to 'sabotage the country'.
It said the message being sent out internationally was that Ireland was closed for business at a time when competitiveness was already challenged.
ISME called on Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey to immediately implement contingency measures to ensure this situation could not be repeated.
He was replying to the Labour leader Eamon Gilmore, who said the disruption was disproportionate.
The Dáil is due to debate the dispute this afternoon.
Employers' group IBEC has criticised the stoppage and said there was no reason why the public should be held to ransom in this way.Small and medium enterprises group ISME accused the air traffic controllers of trying to 'sabotage the country'.
It said the message being sent out internationally was that Ireland was closed for business at a time when competitiveness was already challenged.
ISME called on Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey to immediately implement contingency measures to ensure this situation could not be repeated.
Tourism industry worried
The tourism industry has expressed concern about the ongoing uncertainty surrounding air services in and out of the country.
Tourism Chief Executive Frank Magee said the dispute had the poteDublin ntial to have a very negative effect on tourism.
He said figures to the end of November showed visitors to Ireland were down 12%.
'This dispute is the last thing the tourism industry needs.'
John Whelan of the Irish Exporters Association said airport work stoppages could only have a damaging effect on freight and cargo exports.
He said high value goods - and particular pharmaceuticals - with temperature controlled and time sensitive products were most at risk
The tourism industry has expressed concern about the ongoing uncertainty surrounding air services in and out of the country.
Tourism Chief Executive Frank Magee said the dispute had the poteDublin ntial to have a very negative effect on tourism.
He said figures to the end of November showed visitors to Ireland were down 12%.
'This dispute is the last thing the tourism industry needs.'
John Whelan of the Irish Exporters Association said airport work stoppages could only have a damaging effect on freight and cargo exports.
He said high value goods - and particular pharmaceuticals - with temperature controlled and time sensitive products were most at risk
Disproportionate it was too and an own goal of epic stupidity as seemed to be evidenced by the almost sheepish reaction of the comments to the media coming out of the meeting in Roscrea.
I have to say, you've managed something almost unique. United the country against yourselves, taken the heat of the Irish government and managed to get MOL to speak civilly in support of the IAA.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of your dispute. You and your union have mishandled it appallingly.
Well done!
Cows, 11,500
American Chronicle | Air Traffic Controllers — FAA Talks Dispute Future Airspace Safety
It ruined lives, tore families apart, forced many good people out of the industry and in some cases, out of the country. The impacts were much more than Aunt Mary missing her favourite neice getting married, a businessmen missing a meeting or someone have their holidays disrupted or cancelled.
American Chronicle | Air Traffic Controllers — FAA Talks Dispute Future Airspace Safety
It ruined lives, tore families apart, forced many good people out of the industry and in some cases, out of the country. The impacts were much more than Aunt Mary missing her favourite neice getting married, a businessmen missing a meeting or someone have their holidays disrupted or cancelled.
Last edited by sunnySA; 22nd Jan 2010 at 07:47. Reason: another post was posted
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sunnySA - thanks for that
Interesting quote in that article:
"There is a federal mandate which requires all controllers to retire at age 56 whether or not there are employees to replace them."
Interesting quote in that article:
"There is a federal mandate which requires all controllers to retire at age 56 whether or not there are employees to replace them."
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if people are that jealous of atco wages and t's and c's, maybe they should quit their job and train as one.
Looking at a pay scale for future earnings is something you should do before you apply for a job. I did, and i'm very happy with my wage thanks. And i would not apologise for this to anyone.
If you lost your job in the recession it is unfortunate but maybe you should have thought about that before pursuing that career path. job security should be a high priority on your list of needs.
ryanair - kmt.
well done the irish controllers for sticking together.
Looking at a pay scale for future earnings is something you should do before you apply for a job. I did, and i'm very happy with my wage thanks. And i would not apologise for this to anyone.
If you lost your job in the recession it is unfortunate but maybe you should have thought about that before pursuing that career path. job security should be a high priority on your list of needs.
ryanair - kmt.
well done the irish controllers for sticking together.
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American Chronicle | Air Traffic Controllers — FAA Talks Dispute Future Airspace Safety
SunnySA, thats an enlightening/shuddering insight into what happened, how have things progressed (or not) since then in 2005 when it was written?
SunnySA, thats an enlightening/shuddering insight into what happened, how have things progressed (or not) since then in 2005 when it was written?
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I agree, well said Eric! I cant believe that pilots are commenting on how greedy and selfish the Irish Atco's are being. Perhaps if they were to visit their own forum and view how badly they are regarded by the true professionals in their own industry they would think twice before making such ridiculous postings. The likes of 737-500 are slowly turning the profession of pilot into a laughing stock. The Irish Atcos are fighting for long term working practices and conditions. I cant remember the pilots or general public demanding pay rises for Atcos when the celtic tiger economy was booming! Having lived in Ireland for several years during the last recession it is quite telling how your society has become anglicised since then!! and that's not a compliment. Without the full knowledge of all the facts I would suggest that Pilots and even other Atco's desist from berating my Irish colleagues. I wish we in the uk had the backbone to stand up for ourselves in the same way. hopefully , people like 737-500 are in the minority among our pilot colleagues. Anyone who spends that amount of money to work for MOL must be of questionable talent and ability!!
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To all those who say shame on controllers for looking for the 6% payrise that has been agreed and independently assesed as being proper. I say why not.
We are not public service. The taxpayer does not pay our wages. It costs the man on the street NOTHING to pay our wages whether are 18 k or 250k a year. We are net contibiutors to the exchequer every year not just in tax but dividends to the dept of finance.
The IAA make 15 million profit every year yet we charge around 75% less than uk for the same service. We are consistently in the 3 cheapest atc providers in Europe. So why shouldn't we get the Market rate.
To all those begrudgers imbeciles and wannabees grow up and develop a brain to use before posting here.
We are not public service. The taxpayer does not pay our wages. It costs the man on the street NOTHING to pay our wages whether are 18 k or 250k a year. We are net contibiutors to the exchequer every year not just in tax but dividends to the dept of finance.
The IAA make 15 million profit every year yet we charge around 75% less than uk for the same service. We are consistently in the 3 cheapest atc providers in Europe. So why shouldn't we get the Market rate.
To all those begrudgers imbeciles and wannabees grow up and develop a brain to use before posting here.
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"It costs the man on the street NOTHING to pay our wages "
Utter tripe!
Firstly, airline customers pay you fees and these charges are passed on to the man on the street so how can you say it costs us nothing?
Secondly, the issue of disruption in essential services must be addressed even if it means firing you all.
Utter tripe!
Firstly, airline customers pay you fees and these charges are passed on to the man on the street so how can you say it costs us nothing?
Secondly, the issue of disruption in essential services must be addressed even if it means firing you all.
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Absolutely agree with you hardcrud, but have to agree more with sober lark on that one point. Ultimately the passengers pay the airlines. If our salaries are too high and our ANSP isn't making a profit, there is the option to increase user charges as a result, and airlines could easily pass that on to Joe Bloggs. Just as MOL now appears to be threatening with his fares, due to increased costs in & out of Ireland...
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obvious
sober lark,
somewhere along the line somebody always pay for something, you idiot.
the airlines pay the CRCO, they pay the IAA, they pay me and when I fly, i pay the airline......
see the connection???
thats enough economics for halfwits for today.
Why are the IAA peddling out an external HR consultant and pretending he's our HR director?
Where is E.Brennan? last time i looked he was also acting Director of HR after Liam Kavanaghs retirement.
Did that contract go out to tender?
What HAS Brennan done to earn his 412k salary?
somewhere along the line somebody always pay for something, you idiot.
the airlines pay the CRCO, they pay the IAA, they pay me and when I fly, i pay the airline......
see the connection???
thats enough economics for halfwits for today.
Why are the IAA peddling out an external HR consultant and pretending he's our HR director?
Where is E.Brennan? last time i looked he was also acting Director of HR after Liam Kavanaghs retirement.
Did that contract go out to tender?
What HAS Brennan done to earn his 412k salary?
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stupid
sober lark,
Why do smart people allow themselves to be lead by stupid people?
why do stupid people allow themselves to think their smart?
Do you really think anyone here needs to hear your sour grapes.
yes i have a good job, yes i have a good salary which I deserve and yes i will fight to maintain your conditions.
I did say your conditions because if IBEC/IAA win then they're coming after the private sector.
Who will you whinge at then?
You and LOTs of others were delayed by our actions and I apologise, we are not happy or comfortable with this but you obviously don't know the history of this.
If you were smart you would be asking why the IAA figures you possess fall short of the 230k the IAA allege we earn wonder who is lying.
I DESERVE every penny I earn and I do earn it, not like the bankers developers that have F***ed this country up.
Why dont you complain bitterly about the taoiseach that earns more than the president of the USA and gets his pension after 4 years in office?
At least I do my job.
Why do smart people allow themselves to be lead by stupid people?
why do stupid people allow themselves to think their smart?
Do you really think anyone here needs to hear your sour grapes.
yes i have a good job, yes i have a good salary which I deserve and yes i will fight to maintain your conditions.
I did say your conditions because if IBEC/IAA win then they're coming after the private sector.
Who will you whinge at then?
You and LOTs of others were delayed by our actions and I apologise, we are not happy or comfortable with this but you obviously don't know the history of this.
If you were smart you would be asking why the IAA figures you possess fall short of the 230k the IAA allege we earn wonder who is lying.
I DESERVE every penny I earn and I do earn it, not like the bankers developers that have F***ed this country up.
Why dont you complain bitterly about the taoiseach that earns more than the president of the USA and gets his pension after 4 years in office?
At least I do my job.