Irish Air Traffic Controllers to be suspended
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viper3 you and your colleagues may not be allowed to post the full story or parts that the IAA/IBEC keep forgetting to mention.
I will happily do it below is a piece from the times on the CEO Eamonn brennan brother of the late Seamus Brennan who happened to be the minister of transport(jobs for the boys me thinks).
most of the red top rags are printing in bold the salary of 160k for an ATCO i heard from a source that its 115k after 20yrs service so were are the rag papers getting 160k?(IAA/IBEC ?)
IBEC is the employers union so to speak who are hell bent on reducing wages wether it be public/private sector i wouldnt believe a word from them,as according to them the average wage in the ESB is 90k(which is utter bull)
I lost my job last year and have been doing agency work since its not ideal but it pays the bills i was offered a job in the mean time driving an artic for the minimun wage in Ireland for a well known british supermarket.
transport costs are one of the biggest for retailers(fuel&drivers wage being the biggest).
did the chain pass on the costs to the consumer did they f**K its a race to the bottom.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...246190751.html
I will happily do it below is a piece from the times on the CEO Eamonn brennan brother of the late Seamus Brennan who happened to be the minister of transport(jobs for the boys me thinks).
most of the red top rags are printing in bold the salary of 160k for an ATCO i heard from a source that its 115k after 20yrs service so were are the rag papers getting 160k?(IAA/IBEC ?)
IBEC is the employers union so to speak who are hell bent on reducing wages wether it be public/private sector i wouldnt believe a word from them,as according to them the average wage in the ESB is 90k(which is utter bull)
I lost my job last year and have been doing agency work since its not ideal but it pays the bills i was offered a job in the mean time driving an artic for the minimun wage in Ireland for a well known british supermarket.
transport costs are one of the biggest for retailers(fuel&drivers wage being the biggest).
did the chain pass on the costs to the consumer did they f**K its a race to the bottom.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...246190751.html
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He also indicated that the introduction of a no strike clause for personnel providing essential services would have to be examined in the wake of the dispute.
For a four hour stoppage??? Christ on a bike, what would he do if it's a full days strike? Martial Law? I see the Dail is packed with the same sort of tw4ts we have down at Westminster.
And for those who seem to hate Mo'L so much, get yerself a copy of Paul Kilduff's 'Little Book of Mick'. It had me pissing myself laughing. The man is funny, he can't be all bad - "We are not going to die at the hands of toiletries!"
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daveyb :
The link to the Irish Times works but they ask 10 Euros to view it ! A sign of the times in Ireland ? Who will spend 10 Eur to view yesterday's paper sold 1 euro ?
MOL has some fans here ...
The link to the Irish Times works but they ask 10 Euros to view it ! A sign of the times in Ireland ? Who will spend 10 Eur to view yesterday's paper sold 1 euro ?
MOL has some fans here ...
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Standard Noise, A group of freinds lost 10,000 in flight fares, hotel bookings and car hire that they would have used this weekend.
Four hours smack bang in the middle of the day. It might as well have been 9am-9pm.
The *entire* country's controlled airspace was closed, timed to cause maximum f*ck-up ot Irish passengers,
Then the people who did it say "ohh ohhh don't look at meeee look at the big bad managers waah waah waaah makin me work the big bad compooter system that scares me waaah waah waah"
If it was a safety issue, why didn't the union guy state it?
What is the name of the disputed computer system? Anyone got a company link?
Four hours smack bang in the middle of the day. It might as well have been 9am-9pm.
The *entire* country's controlled airspace was closed, timed to cause maximum f*ck-up ot Irish passengers,
Then the people who did it say "ohh ohhh don't look at meeee look at the big bad managers waah waah waaah makin me work the big bad compooter system that scares me waaah waah waah"
If it was a safety issue, why didn't the union guy state it?
What is the name of the disputed computer system? Anyone got a company link?
What is the name of the disputed computer system? Anyone got a company link?
COOPANS, pointmerge, and Dual runway operations at Dublin are the current projects in dispute. Some information on these & objections by ATC'ers to the technology:
The second effort is pure spin 2010 Irish ATC dispute get the facts
COOPANS, pointmerge, and Dual runway operations at Dublin are the current projects in dispute. Some information on these & objections by ATC'ers to the technology:
The second effort is pure spin 2010 Irish ATC dispute get the facts
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Ok hum, read your side of the story (not calling it the "facts, then again I don't call IAA side the "facts" either)
Why aren't you hammering on about this?
Instead of letting IMPACT waffle about another dispute.
If safety had been at the forefront of this dispute, (and I'm on about the union getting their man on the telly hammering on about "safety safety safety") then the public reaction (me included) would be a lot more on your side.
It wasn't. Joe Public saw the ATCOs shaft them because 15 people threw their toys out of the pram and got suspended.
If you want Joe Public back on side, then publicise the issues against the use of the new systems.
I want to hear your people on about "COOPANS, pointmerge, and dual runway ops" in the news. That is your only hope of getting any support from the public when the MOT slaps a "No Strike" clause in your contract by law.
Why aren't you hammering on about this?
We are very concerned that this project may lead to in air or on ground collisions. As aircraft will be transiting from one side of the aerodrome to the other across another active runway on the ground in the air aircraft will be turning towards another active flight path either on approach or departure; then the big issue is what happens during a missed approach? We want to talk about the safety and impact of this and the other changes.
Disruption to flights today is happening SOLELY because management at the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) has suspended air traffic controllers from duty in Dublin and Shannon airports, without pay.
The disruption can be avoided if management withdraws the suspensions.
Air traffic controllers are NOT taking industrial action today in pursuit of a pay claim, or over new technologies. They are taking action because management has suspended staff.
There was no need for management to do this because the core differences between management and staff are already being dealt with by the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court. [The pay issue goes before the Labour Court next Tuesday and both sides agreed last Thursday that the new technologies issue should also be referred to the Labour Court].
Pending the Labour Court process, IMPACT told the company that air traffic controllers would respond to any suspensions with industrial action but the company went ahead anyway, even though it is less than a week until the Labour Court hearing.
The company is being dishonest when it says that the air traffic controllers should be cooperating with new work practices in advance of a Labour Court hearing. They say that the new work practices are normal ongoing change, when that is the precise issue that the Labour Court has been asked to rule on whether they are normal ongoing change or not. The status quo is the existing work practices not the new ones.
The IAA has said it will further escalate the problem by making further suspensions today and tomorrow.
Members of the union working at air traffic control voted, by a majority of 99%, not to cooperate with the new work practices until agreement could be reached. Pending agreement, air traffic controllers are observing an instruction of non-cooperation by their trade union, IMPACT.
The disruption can be avoided if management withdraws the suspensions.
Air traffic controllers are NOT taking industrial action today in pursuit of a pay claim, or over new technologies. They are taking action because management has suspended staff.
There was no need for management to do this because the core differences between management and staff are already being dealt with by the Labour Relations Commission and the Labour Court. [The pay issue goes before the Labour Court next Tuesday and both sides agreed last Thursday that the new technologies issue should also be referred to the Labour Court].
Pending the Labour Court process, IMPACT told the company that air traffic controllers would respond to any suspensions with industrial action but the company went ahead anyway, even though it is less than a week until the Labour Court hearing.
The company is being dishonest when it says that the air traffic controllers should be cooperating with new work practices in advance of a Labour Court hearing. They say that the new work practices are normal ongoing change, when that is the precise issue that the Labour Court has been asked to rule on whether they are normal ongoing change or not. The status quo is the existing work practices not the new ones.
The IAA has said it will further escalate the problem by making further suspensions today and tomorrow.
Members of the union working at air traffic control voted, by a majority of 99%, not to cooperate with the new work practices until agreement could be reached. Pending agreement, air traffic controllers are observing an instruction of non-cooperation by their trade union, IMPACT.
It wasn't. Joe Public saw the ATCOs shaft them because 15 people threw their toys out of the pram and got suspended.
If you want Joe Public back on side, then publicise the issues against the use of the new systems.
I want to hear your people on about "COOPANS, pointmerge, and dual runway ops" in the news. That is your only hope of getting any support from the public when the MOT slaps a "No Strike" clause in your contract by law.
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Actually nosefirsteverytime, Hum isn't ATC. He just provided the link. So he can't answer. He isn't defending them either.
Which I find telling in itself. Despite Viper's reply to me (Thanks). That blog is the only place you you can find any form of explanation of exactly what the 'alleged' issue is about. The strikers have failed dismally to explain their problem and their actions whatever the justification, of going on strike with one day's notice is outrageous. To say the dispute is about suspended controllers is disingenuous to say the least. We all know what happens when you you refuse work. The knew exactly what would happen when they refused to cooperate. This was planned and deliberate. The walk out was far from spontaneous.
Also we now have examples of bloodyminded work to rule actions even when they are on duty. Deliberately making life difficult for pilots and airlines by removing flexibility. What's that all about? Punish your customers?
What they failed to do was put any form public relations effort into explaining the dispute. They also failed to anticipate the almost universally negative public reaction. Last night we were treated to the unedifying spectactle of MOL and the IAA HR guy indulging in a love in on the nine o'clock news. MOL was characteristiclly blunt and the othe guy persausive. They had the field to themselves. Where were you your union reps?
They have managed to introduce the idea of 'no strike' clauses in certain jobs to the mind of the government and public at large. They have also demonstrated quite effectively just how easily a tiny minority can endanger business, tourism and the economy of an island nation. You've made that point all right. You have the power. But now the government has noticed too.
They have also failed to convince anyone that this dispute isn't about the 6% payrise. Because of course it is. We can stop pretending otherwise. By all means, make your point about overpaid and incompetent management trying to force through cost savings etc. We know all about it. Almost everywhere I ever worked had overpaid incompetent management trying to force through cost savings. Welcome to the real world.
In time, I think you will realise what a mistake this was. By your actions you will have strengthened that hand of the IAA and have lowered your status in the eyes of the customers and public. It's likely that no future government can allow such disruption again and changes will be made to the detriment of the job.
Which I find telling in itself. Despite Viper's reply to me (Thanks). That blog is the only place you you can find any form of explanation of exactly what the 'alleged' issue is about. The strikers have failed dismally to explain their problem and their actions whatever the justification, of going on strike with one day's notice is outrageous. To say the dispute is about suspended controllers is disingenuous to say the least. We all know what happens when you you refuse work. The knew exactly what would happen when they refused to cooperate. This was planned and deliberate. The walk out was far from spontaneous.
Also we now have examples of bloodyminded work to rule actions even when they are on duty. Deliberately making life difficult for pilots and airlines by removing flexibility. What's that all about? Punish your customers?
What they failed to do was put any form public relations effort into explaining the dispute. They also failed to anticipate the almost universally negative public reaction. Last night we were treated to the unedifying spectactle of MOL and the IAA HR guy indulging in a love in on the nine o'clock news. MOL was characteristiclly blunt and the othe guy persausive. They had the field to themselves. Where were you your union reps?
They have managed to introduce the idea of 'no strike' clauses in certain jobs to the mind of the government and public at large. They have also demonstrated quite effectively just how easily a tiny minority can endanger business, tourism and the economy of an island nation. You've made that point all right. You have the power. But now the government has noticed too.
They have also failed to convince anyone that this dispute isn't about the 6% payrise. Because of course it is. We can stop pretending otherwise. By all means, make your point about overpaid and incompetent management trying to force through cost savings etc. We know all about it. Almost everywhere I ever worked had overpaid incompetent management trying to force through cost savings. Welcome to the real world.
In time, I think you will realise what a mistake this was. By your actions you will have strengthened that hand of the IAA and have lowered your status in the eyes of the customers and public. It's likely that no future government can allow such disruption again and changes will be made to the detriment of the job.
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All this blarney about public opinion is a complete smokescreen which should NOT disuade ANY union from taking industrial action where management is seen to be taking the pi$$.
I doubt there exists a single individual who has been inconvenienced by a strike who'll say they're in favour of it; especially where it has hit them in the pocket personally, disrupted their business or holiday plans.
Employees should not be expected to be royally shafted by their bosses and do nothing about it for fear of upsetting Joe Public, who for the most part couldn't give two hoots what controllers get paid - they're only the guys at the airports with the table tennis bats after all.
If management spin and the bias to be found in the media are to win the day then we may as well save whatever £$ we throw away each month in the form of TU-subs and just let the b@***rds walk all over us! All this tosh about pay; people got suspended and that was why the remainder walked, but never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.
Yesterday saw a courageous step taken by those involved, and one which I'm sure wasn't taken lightly - respect.
On a separate note, I see MOL wasn't brave enough to put the boot in where the French industrial action is concerned - knows too damned well how that would go down over there, especially in the media, and what effect it would have on business. Anyone know what "underworked" and "overpaid" is in French? Seems MOL doesn't either... French Air Traffic Control Strike- 21st January 2010
As for industrial action being outlawed, anyone ever heard of the NYPD's "Blue Flu"?...
I doubt there exists a single individual who has been inconvenienced by a strike who'll say they're in favour of it; especially where it has hit them in the pocket personally, disrupted their business or holiday plans.
Employees should not be expected to be royally shafted by their bosses and do nothing about it for fear of upsetting Joe Public, who for the most part couldn't give two hoots what controllers get paid - they're only the guys at the airports with the table tennis bats after all.
If management spin and the bias to be found in the media are to win the day then we may as well save whatever £$ we throw away each month in the form of TU-subs and just let the b@***rds walk all over us! All this tosh about pay; people got suspended and that was why the remainder walked, but never let the truth stand in the way of a good story.
Yesterday saw a courageous step taken by those involved, and one which I'm sure wasn't taken lightly - respect.
On a separate note, I see MOL wasn't brave enough to put the boot in where the French industrial action is concerned - knows too damned well how that would go down over there, especially in the media, and what effect it would have on business. Anyone know what "underworked" and "overpaid" is in French? Seems MOL doesn't either... French Air Traffic Control Strike- 21st January 2010
As for industrial action being outlawed, anyone ever heard of the NYPD's "Blue Flu"?...
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blarney?
Blarney my sweet fanny adams!
It's public opinion that will drive people to submit to their TDs (what we in Ireland call our MPs) that "these lefty gobshytes should be fired" (not my words, but those of some I've heard). It will be public opinion that supports the Minister for Transport when he removes your "right to strike". It will be public opinion that will decide whether the strikers will get support or nasty looks from those that know them!
This is as true for unions, as it is for any politician or manager.
"ask yourself, before you act, "What is it that I ignore?"
For it is always that which you ignore, that will be your downfall."
(As for "blue flu", in Ireland we've had our own.)
Blarney my sweet fanny adams!
It's public opinion that will drive people to submit to their TDs (what we in Ireland call our MPs) that "these lefty gobshytes should be fired" (not my words, but those of some I've heard). It will be public opinion that supports the Minister for Transport when he removes your "right to strike". It will be public opinion that will decide whether the strikers will get support or nasty looks from those that know them!
This is as true for unions, as it is for any politician or manager.
"ask yourself, before you act, "What is it that I ignore?"
For it is always that which you ignore, that will be your downfall."
(As for "blue flu", in Ireland we've had our own.)
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daveyb
daveyb, Thanks for the support,
Personally speaking I would love to confirm or correct many of the points you have raised but as I am requesting other ATCOs to remain stoic, I must too.
Without quoting figures my salary including allowances for shift/ weekend and night work falls considerably short of the aforementioned 115k.
as for the 25 hour week, sorry, 41 hours gross 34.5 net just like everyone else.
I agree about the race to the bottom and as you see we are actively resisting this, again.
Sorry to hear about your employment situation, really I am. Like everyone else, I have family and friends that have lost jobs mostly due to greedy employers and IBEC taking advantage of the hysteria they have created to sack people just to raise profits and bonuses.
They want to make an example of us for daring to stand for our rights as if its a criminal act.
V
Personally speaking I would love to confirm or correct many of the points you have raised but as I am requesting other ATCOs to remain stoic, I must too.
Without quoting figures my salary including allowances for shift/ weekend and night work falls considerably short of the aforementioned 115k.
as for the 25 hour week, sorry, 41 hours gross 34.5 net just like everyone else.
I agree about the race to the bottom and as you see we are actively resisting this, again.
Sorry to hear about your employment situation, really I am. Like everyone else, I have family and friends that have lost jobs mostly due to greedy employers and IBEC taking advantage of the hysteria they have created to sack people just to raise profits and bonuses.
They want to make an example of us for daring to stand for our rights as if its a criminal act.
V
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Dear <115,000, who feels used and underpaid. When you talk about how little you earn, I'd like to know if you are ignoring the amount of money going into your pension or do you feel that doesn't count?
It would be interesting to know how much it costs your employer to employ you?
It would be interesting to know how much it costs your employer to employ you?
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You are on the wrong frequency. I'm not management.
I heard a 25 year old can expect:
Basic 55,600.
Shift allowance 15,200.
6% Bank holiday allowance 7,200.
And the part I have a problem with is an incredible 30.5% pension contribution of 17,000. Crazy!
A starter gets 17,000 paid into a pension plan and doesn't have to save a single cent themselves.
A package worth 90,000 and that's for someone starting off. Some of you get up to 160,000. The average industrial wage here is 40,000.
How can any airliner or PAX subsidise such off the wall salaries. Does it not worry you that PAX traffic here has fallen 15% and it hasn't bottomed out yet .
You held the country to ransom and you don't value what you have and the public demand better.
Look at what you have not what you don't have. Look around you. Look at how everyone else in the country is coping. The celtic Tiger is dead so get off your high towers come on down to ground level so you can realise how sickening your whinging looks to us public.
I heard a 25 year old can expect:
Basic 55,600.
Shift allowance 15,200.
6% Bank holiday allowance 7,200.
And the part I have a problem with is an incredible 30.5% pension contribution of 17,000. Crazy!
A starter gets 17,000 paid into a pension plan and doesn't have to save a single cent themselves.
A package worth 90,000 and that's for someone starting off. Some of you get up to 160,000. The average industrial wage here is 40,000.
How can any airliner or PAX subsidise such off the wall salaries. Does it not worry you that PAX traffic here has fallen 15% and it hasn't bottomed out yet .
You held the country to ransom and you don't value what you have and the public demand better.
Look at what you have not what you don't have. Look around you. Look at how everyone else in the country is coping. The celtic Tiger is dead so get off your high towers come on down to ground level so you can realise how sickening your whinging looks to us public.
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A 'poor' engineer says
I feel very little remorse to those who have lost their job. It's sounds to me that the goose that lays the golden egg has been well and truly stuffed.
Get back to work, continue the projects which will save you workload in the future and ignore the Union which is obviuosly profitteering out of this melee by creaming of a percentage of your lottery money earnings.
Oh and join the real-world!
Get back to work, continue the projects which will save you workload in the future and ignore the Union which is obviuosly profitteering out of this melee by creaming of a percentage of your lottery money earnings.
Oh and join the real-world!
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Hmmmmmm
Sober lark
with such accurate information at your fingertips i have to concur that you are some kind of management plant or worse still a sycophantic lackey boy looking for a pat on the head and a juicy bone from your master.
If you are so jealous (unhealthily obsessed I'd say) of these peoples salaries why don't you get a job as an ATCO? or did you fail the exams?
Is that why you are so bitter?
Anyone who defends IBEC and the employers in this climate is being paid to do so.
I request that the moderator pull all posts from this user as he is breaking the spirit of this forum by trying to provoke ATCOs for his employers gain.
ATCOs
As others have said on this forum before me ignore people like this.
with such accurate information at your fingertips i have to concur that you are some kind of management plant or worse still a sycophantic lackey boy looking for a pat on the head and a juicy bone from your master.
If you are so jealous (unhealthily obsessed I'd say) of these peoples salaries why don't you get a job as an ATCO? or did you fail the exams?
Is that why you are so bitter?
Anyone who defends IBEC and the employers in this climate is being paid to do so.
I request that the moderator pull all posts from this user as he is breaking the spirit of this forum by trying to provoke ATCOs for his employers gain.
ATCOs
As others have said on this forum before me ignore people like this.
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What does Mr Ryanair have to say ?
Mmmm...let's have a guess
Fire 'Overpaid' Air Traffic Controllers: Ryanair CEO - CNBC
No surprises there.
Fire 'Overpaid' Air Traffic Controllers: Ryanair CEO - CNBC
No surprises there.