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Irish Air Traffic Controllers to be suspended

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Irish Air Traffic Controllers to be suspended

Old 24th Jan 2010, 17:55
  #141 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 951
Sorry for creating a misspelling scandal.

Thank you for your post out the gap. I'm not sure I understand what the independent assessment that determined the IAA can easily afford to give you all a 6% increase without PAX having to pay a cent is? Is there some time lag between when this conclusion was reached and today's economic climate that has them saying they can't afford it?

Your union leaders are doing a terrible job in communicating your plight to the public. The Irish Independent Thursday January 21 2010 comments:

"Figures this week from the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) reveal that the top 10pc of Irish air traffic controllers in Ireland are earning between 170,000 to 230,000 a year, while the average pay is 160,000.

Basic starting salary for fully qualified controllers is just under 51,000. With a shift allowance included, it comes to nearly 75,000. The maximum basic pay for controllers, including shift allowance, is more than 112,000.
The IAA says it pays the equivalent of 30.5pc of every controller's salary towards their pension.

In the United States, according to the government's Bureau of Labour Statistics, the average pay for the more than 26,000 air traffic controllers there, excluding overtime, in March 2009 was $109,000 (77,000) -- that's less than half the average in Ireland.

In Britain, a newly qualified controller gets about 26,000 (30,000), while the average pay is 60,000 (69,000) and can rise to 90,000 (103,000), according to National Air Traffic Services (NATS). In France, controllers are paid about 110,000 on average."

No one in your union has come out and corrected any of these figures so the public has to take them at face value. Of course this builds up resentment if you then delay their travel plans. Why can't you be honest with the facts.

I agree your defined benefit pension is the Rolls Royce of retirement plans but paying a portion yourselves isn't unreasonable these days and the deficit isn't entirely your managers fault.

Your timing is just wrong. The figures are out there, people say you already have enough. People resent the safety boogey man will get you thing and they don't appreciate a small goup of individuals having the capability of black mailing us by holding our country to ransom.

I believe some form of no strike clause will have to be introduced. You can tell me how you'd feel about that later next week.

If the Govt. hasn't got the guts it takes then in the not too distant future perhaps some form of remote ATC will help resolve our predicament.

Sober Lark is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2010, 18:00
  #142 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: cloud9
Posts: 25
Remote ATC oh my now that's funny. Shows a real in depth knowledge no sorry that's not right, that shows no knowledge at all.

Funny man
sevenstar is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2010, 18:54
  #143 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The Pearly White Gates
Posts: 100
Now you should know better than to trust the media
Have you been able to independently coroborate any of this information or are you just deriving this from the independent.ie website

Last edited by Yahweh; 24th Jan 2010 at 21:11.
Yahweh is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2010, 19:13
  #144 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,831
Maybe IMPACT should counter the IAA'sfigures. Surely they know what their members earn? Of course, this whole argument isn't about salary, it's about safety, isn't it? At least, that is what IMPACT are saying.

I'm still open-minded, but I am seeing a far more effective PR campaign from the IAA.
Cows getting bigger is offline  
Old 24th Jan 2010, 23:42
  #145 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
For the morons who feel a direct conversion from one currency to another is a valid way of comparing salary

Jerricho is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2010, 10:30
  #146 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2007
Location: swanwick carp lake
Posts: 232
sober lark,

remote atc, how would that work then you div?

day 1) sack all irish controllers and therefore close airspace or having burning wrecks of metal landing all over the emerald isle.

day 2) find non existent controllers not already employed elsewhere in the world in sufficient numbers that they can man an ops room somewhere and have all radar data and such like pumped to them via a wire? meanwhile airspace is still closed or there would be burning wrecks of metal crashing all over the emerald isle.

day 3) realise that it was a mistake because these "spare" controllers with no idea about irish airspace are STILL non existent. airspace doesn't have to be closed as most planes have crashed into each other and those thta havent are empty as no-one is up for flying anymore.

day 4) re-employ the sacked irish controllers at an increased wage as they can demand whatever they like as it has been proven that joe public would prefer more expensive flights over their body parts being spread all over ireland.

ImnotanERIC is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2010, 11:43
  #147 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 193
west atc,

Thank you, I had based my knowledge on this forum only I'm afraid and so am more than happy to stand corrected.
hangten is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2010, 14:43
  #148 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: france
Posts: 126
Originally Posted by ImnotanERIC
day 4) re-employ the sacked irish controllers...
...Re-employ ???... Never again...
As they will be now stakeholders of their own brand new ANS company...
They will be just waiting for the control centre keys, happy like never, to be back on duty under their own company conditions...
saintex2002 is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2010, 17:10
  #149 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The World
Posts: 136
Hey Hangten,

No worries, just thought you would be interested, hope you don't think I was trying to be nasty.

I keep that attitude reserved for The Lark!
west atc is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2010, 17:57
  #150 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Paradise
Posts: 72
Not so loud

I...ERIC, Sober Lark's remote ATC idea is highly unlikely but neverthless I don't believe it should be discussed on this thread.

As Viper3 advised earlier, best not provide ideas or details to someone that you do not know who may actually be trying to bait you into providing a good story, possibly fit to print. We have already seen what the Irish rags are willing to do to conjure up a fable that could help sell more of their bird cage liners.

Sober Lark, no accusations intended. Just don't want to see another colleague taken advantage of.
the Shue is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2010, 18:34
  #151 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 951
Thank you Cows, and no worries the Shue, can't see the point if one always assumes a poster is either management or the media (which I'm not I may add).

BTW no one should post anything on Facebook. It is there forever and once published isn't even your property and you have no rights to it.

In reality your unions are a PR disaster. It is surprising that Mr. Landers seems to be so ill prepared and incapable of addressing basic public concerns. Is this the best your union subs can buy? Others in the industry are probably quietly rubbing their hands with glee at his inaptitude in winning public favour. But perhaps you don't have a case to defend? In which case you are correct to maintain silence and remain ever so slightly paranoid.

However, you need to realise the result of this is that public perception of ATCO's so-called grievance is going south. If your working conditions were poor, if you were being asked to do more work I could support you but in this current economic climate I haven't read or heard a shred of evidence that would permit me spare you even a morceau of sympathy.

When one is held to ransom in the way you did last Wed you don't tend to accept union tough talk or diversions that try to place the blame elsewhere. The persons who missed a funeral, the persons who missed their holiday their business deal their job interview don't buy it.

You said you were not comfortable with the effects your actions had on the public yet you'd like to think it will blow over and that we with the passing of time will somehow gradually feel comfortable with your 'strike it rich' walk out. How can you get what you want and expect a door to be left open to you to execute the same con at a future date of your choosing again and again and again. Surely this option wasn't one of the attractions when you signed up to the job? Something has to be done in Ireland and I think in the EU as a whole to make strikes like that unlawful.

I don't believe in tarring everyone with the same brush I fully appreciate not everyone in ATCO who is a member of a union supports the actions taken they may not approve but they are members and must follow. There are a few bad apples in every tower.

The key issues to your crisis still exists regardless of our discussions here. Lets hope the assemblage this week results in some compromise in outlawing striking in essential services.

Why are you not disputing anything the media have written about you. You could use PPRuNe to help us understand or demand Mr. Landers to gives you a little more PR value for the price of your subs.

In the meantime let us wait and see
Sober Lark is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2010, 19:04
  #152 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Delphi
Posts: 62
Not from the Emerald Isle but here's an outsider view. Use it, don't use it.

However, you need to realise the result of this is that public perception of ATCO's so-called grievance is going south.
And what are they going to do about it? Use another service provider? Best of both worlds is a monopoly in a captive market. Take a bus if you have issues Mr. Joe Public.

The persons who missed a funeral, the persons who missed their holiday their business deal their job interview don't buy it.
Cry me a [email protected]#$%ng river. Deep down ATCs don't care about perceptions, fuel burn or missed appointments.

...we'd fire you all as you represent a hinderance to the economic recovery of a country you care little for.
If you want to see a hindrance then go ahead, make my day.

Then, why are you the second highest paid ATCO's in Europe?
Well, when you make a list of things someone has to be first and second and third and....

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never harm me. As much as the traveling public and pilots scream and bleat, there is not really anything substantial they can do. And the more you suspend/fire ATCs the worse it gets for the aforementioned.

Now, go ahead and rip me to pieces. I don't give a toss.
VoxPopuli is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2010, 20:54
  #153 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: South Coast
Posts: 94
"The key issues to your crisis still exists regardless of our discussions here. Lets hope the assemblage this week results in some compromise in outlawing striking in essential services. "

The right to strike is a basic one and must never be taken away.
Fletchers Left Boot is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2010, 19:24
  #154 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The land down-under
Posts: 127
Despite protestations that this was a "strike it rich" walk out, no ATC ever wants to see aircraft delayed or airspace closed. It's against everything we strive for professionally but the issue of no strike clauses makes my blood run cold. When you are pushed to the point where no-one will listen, where the employer simply ignores any pleas or direction from independent arbiters and says they'll do what they like, you must have the option to exercise the right to withdraw your labour otherwise you are simply a slave.

How about looking at clauses binding the employer and employee to abide by an agreement? Or if they can't/won't mandatory powers of the labour court that bind all parties. It's only a dispute if the parties disagree and IAA
certainly disagrees with having to abide by the agreement it's signed up to.

The technological changes discussed are a dramatic departure from current practice but like many ANSPs IAA seems bent on a "Here it is" delivery process rather than trying to build a robust transition strategy that brings the staff that have to use it \along with the "visionaries" that think it's a good idea. From bitter experience I can tell you it doesn't work and years of near misses or worse as the system is slowly fixed will follow. There is a better way and the first step is actually listening to your staff's concerns.

Dick N. Cider is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2010, 19:53
  #155 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: on the way to sea
Posts: 237
where is now that idiot CEO of pirate airliner? Still want to sack all of them?

NATCA: Safety Becoming An Issue As Errors Rise

The number of fully trained and certified air traffic controllers at Southern California Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON), the nation's busiest FAA air traffic control facility that handles the climb and approach phases of flight, has fallen 26 percent in the last six years, according to new staffing information released today by the National Air Traffic Controllers Association (NATCA).

In 2004, SoCal TRACON was staffed with 239 fully trained and certified controllers (called "CPCs" for Certified Professional Controllers), with seven more in training. The total fell to 217 CPCs in 2005 and 199 CPCs in 2006, with 23 trainees. Today, the total stands at 176 CPCs, with 82 trainees, many with no prior FAA or military controller experience, which NATCA says puts them at a disadvantage for successful training at SCT."Asking a new trainee with no prior controller experience to make it here is like asking a person with no flight experience to fly Boeing 747s,"

SoCal TRACON NATCA Facility Representative Mel Davis said. "It's possible, and we have some success stories, but what we really need are more experienced controllers to transfer here. The problem facing the FAA is trying to get these experienced veterans to leave their short- staffed facilities to come to another short-staffed facility, which leaves us in a perilous position."
kontrolor is offline  
Old 30th Jan 2010, 20:12
  #156 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 2,003
I'm sure there are many UK Area/approach radar licenced ATCOs who would love to transfer to SoCAL. Just give them the nod.
As Arnie says in the TV ad....."So, when can you start?".
ZOOKER is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2010, 20:46
  #157 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: U.A.E
Posts: 130

Music to my ears...where do we get the application forms???
controller friendly is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2010, 21:50
  #158 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Ballycasey
Age: 41
Posts: 21

Today FM Homepage
Take a Listen to Gift Bainisteoir 3. Very funny
IKEANO is offline  
Old 31st Jan 2010, 22:22
  #159 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: On a foreign shore trying a new wine diet. So far, I've lost 3days!
Age: 72
Posts: 395

Love the bit about the YMCA impression.

On the beach
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Old 1st Feb 2010, 08:37
  #160 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2008
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Posts: 179
where do we get the application forms
Dig out your US passport and go to FAA Opportunities Search Results
PeltonLevel is offline  

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