Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Ground & Other Ops Forums > ATC Issues
Reload this Page >

Irish Air Traffic Controllers to be suspended

ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

Irish Air Traffic Controllers to be suspended

Old 22nd Jan 2010, 14:30
  #101 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: europe
Posts: 3
But the iaa charge a quarter of what the uk charge for the service their air traffic controllers provide. Yes iaa charge 20 euro, uk charge 80 euro.

So flying in Ireland purely on atc cost is significantly cheaper than almost anywhere else in Europe. You don't here people saying oh I flew to Spain last week but the cost of flying they uk, France and Spain was really high but I got great bargain in Ireland. How expensive is it if ryanair charge you 20 quid to get to alicante anyway?

So I stand by my original point above.

At least controllers EARN their money by controlling planes a 4 am and by providing a service. What has our chief exec done only instigate a needless and useless conflict.
hardcrud is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2010, 14:46
  #102 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 951
Viper you and red barchetta you must have had the same teacher as you both make the same punctuation and grammatical errors.

"then they're coming after the private sector"

The private sector have been hit so badly they can't afford to fly as much as they did. That is one of the reasons you have less flights to deal with.

"we are not happy or comfortable with this "

You delayed 20,000 of us and now you are telling me you felt so uncomfortable about it that you couldn't even give us advance notice. Pull the other one.

The public spotlight is on you with the realisation that you and your ilk can hold the country to ransom. That is of grave concern to us all and for your cause it is very short sighted and poor strategy.
Sober Lark is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2010, 18:48
  #103 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: dream place
Posts: 27

Thanks to all of those who supported irish air traffic controllers-our 14 suspended friends are back to work
To all those who didnt support us-
Waterfall is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2010, 19:06
  #104 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The glasshouse, a stone's throw from you
Posts: 218
In response to aeroflop, everyone who works in Air Navigation Service Provision deserves every penny they earn, but the Irish are taking the mick! Their gravy train is going to run off track very soon as Ireland, as a nation, is nearly bankrupt and they cannot afford the pay rise, so be thankful you have a job.

And I do work in for an ANSP, so my voice has just a much right to be here as you, and no I'm not management . So get off your high horse!

And I apologise for the unintentional pun earlier.

Please search Paul Gogarty on You Tube, he seems to know about the 'screwed' Irish economy.
pottwiddler is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2010, 19:08
  #105 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ireland
Posts: 35
i posted a link the other day regarding the CEO of the IAA salary&bonus from memory basic salary was 450k + bonus of 63k and the IAA paid 90k+ in pension contributions for year ending 2008.
he also got a 22% pay rise last year and then volunteered to a 10% paycut (ah the poor fella fair play to him) the link that i posted did not upload i have it stored on the politics forum on a well known irish website that was hacked as soon as its up and running i will post the full article.

and it will be interesting to see what the IBEC heads aka mr McGinty have to say as he wants no strike clauses for the likes of doctors&nurses he even included the ESB(main supplier of electricty in ireland) whose CEO is a board member of IBEC.
dont mind what the red top rags printed guys there is a lot of support here(ireland) among people i know who earn 30-50k pa and see mgmt in there jobs trying to cut corners to make that all important bonus for them selves.
daveyb is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2010, 19:41
  #106 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ireland
Posts: 35
this is the article
Aviation authority's staff asked to shore up pension

CIARΑN HANCOCK, Business Affairs Correspondent

THE IRISH Aviation Authority will ask its workers to make a contribution of about 8.8 per cent to their defined benefit pension scheme to help shore up a massive deficit.
This decision was made by the company's management yesterday following an extraordinary general meeting convened to look at ways of addressing a €146.6 million deficit in the pension scheme.
The authority also wants to link increases in pensioner pay to inflation rather than to wage rises given to staff members.
The meeting was held in parallel with the publication of the authority's annual report, which showed that the pension deficit ballooned last year by €90.6 million from a level of €56 million in 2007.
This reflected the collapse of equity markets worldwide.
The authority makes a 30.5 per cent contribution on behalf of staff, who pay 1.5 per cent of their pay to the pension.
Authority chief executive Eamonn Brennan said this was no longer sustainable and said it would seek to engage with trade union Impact to reach a new deal.
"We have got to address this with the department of transport and the unions," Mr Brennan told The Irish Times yesterday. "The reality is that the pension fund is insolvent."
Mr Brennan said he wanted to tackle the pension deficit over the next three to five years. "This is not going to go away," he added.
Mr Brennan said he would be willing to pay the pension contribution himself. The authority made a contribution of €96,000 on behalf of Mr Brennan last year as part of a total remuneration of €412,000.
This compared with total pay in 2007 of €350,000. Mr Brennan's basic pay rose last year by 22 per cent to €253,000.
Mr Brennan recently agreed to take a 10 per cent cut in his basic pay. He told The Irish Times that his bonus this year would be about one-third less than the €63,000 he earned last year.
The authority is seeking to defer payment of the latest national wage agreement for two years. Its profits declined by 16.7 per cent last year to €12.2 million despite an 8 per cent rise in turnover to €166.7 million. The volume of air traffic movement was flat in 2008.
Mr Brennan said this year would signal a steeper decline in profits.
In a further sign of recessionary times the crash has seen helicopter ownership collapse over the past year.
Once a powerful status symbol in the years of the Celtic Tiger, property developers and the rich and famous are now frantically offloading their helicopters. At the end of April 2009, there were 144 helicopters registered on the books of the authority compared with 162 in the early part of 2007.
daveyb is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2010, 19:59
  #107 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 48
Posts: 63
All Air Traffic Controllers must support their colleagues!!!
I'm whit u in your fight guys and all of us must be!
prascho is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2010, 21:17
  #108 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The land down-under
Posts: 127
Firstly, the behaviour of the IAA is morally bankrupt and, unfortunately, entirely predictable. To the ATCs of Ireland, pleased be assured that many of us support you wholeheartedly. Unfortunately fora such as this tend to attract the extremes of opinion, and few make the effort to research the topic at hand before selecting [rant on]. No doubt not all ATCs support you, but most do. Equally not all pilots will be against you.

I've been following this with great interest, particularly after the media lashings we took in Australia when ATCs voted overwhelmingly to undertake industrial action about a year ago. The perception of media was that we are a militant, heavily unionised workforce bent on the financial destruction of our employer. Much of this view was generated by the desperate spin doctors employed by the ANSP. Fact; ATC here is almost completely unionised. It is not mandatory, the idea of a closed shop is actually prohibited in law. Fact; ATC by nature are fairly conservative in their decision making and have rarely undertaken industrial action in the 61 years of specific unionisation. Fact; nobody gets paid if the employer goes bust. I suspect there are many parallels in Ireland.

The technological change is something that most of the public will never get. The idea that it's ok to go from two pilot operations for regular public transport jets, down to single pilot, while making flying the aircraft harder is something that would be howled down in aviation circles the world around. But apparently the commensurate change in ATC is all ok and doesn't warrant consultation with the staff that have to wear the additional responsibility (doing the job of two) and losing the safety net of the extra pair of eyes checking things as they happen. CRM is huge in the cockpit. In ATC, increasingly you (all by your lonesome) are the team.

I am pleased your colleagues have been reinstated but am more concerned that the IAA seems to think that your agreed terms of employment are optional. For all the naysayers out there, if the IAA can simply ignore an agreement, including when the LRC directs them to comply, there is no protection for anybody and contracts or agreements are not worth the paper they're written on.

For the terms and conditions issues - you are in the right. The spin doctors are doing well convincing the public that you're all spoilt and over-indulged brats. they rely on "Why should they get more than me?" attitudes. Vox pops will be selective for most impact. MOL's press conference achieved exactly what he wanted - by being controversial he gained maximum exposure but his argument is flawed. Yes the travelling public does fund your salaries (not the general taxpayer) but total ANSP cost is about 1% averaged across the world. IAA fees are considerably lower than the average. I don't see MOL talking about the drop in oil prices as being a huge windfall. ANSPs worldwide are pushing this agenda to retain profits while driving real prices down in their charges because of the rabid appetite, mainly generated by low cost carriers, for increased margin. The only place they can reduce costs is in labour.

As near as I can see, IAA have reneged on an agreement without consultation (imagine if they said to MOL, by the way we're increasing charges by 20% and no further discussion will be entered into). They're ignoring the LRC. They've mismanaged pension funds - hanging offence as far as I'm concerned. Who made all the decisions that lead to this position? Was it the ATCs moving the traffic safely 24 hours a day every day of the year? Was it their union? No it was IAA management. They must be held accountable.

keep your heads up high - all of you.

Dick N. Cider is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 00:00
  #109 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 561
Go you good thing!

As a colleague of Dick N Cider, I fully support his comments.

Also some facts about ATC:

- only about 5% of the population has the aptitude to do the job

- it involves 24hr shift work, public holiday, and some overtime, and an ATCs salary is based on that

- most ATCs work public holidays. E.g. In 27 years I've worked 23 Xmas days. All ATCs work some of the easter holidays, Xmas holidays, etc. Its the nature of the job and ATCs are remunerated accordingly.

- As an Australian ATC, the government is required to contribute to my superanuuation (pension). The value of about 11% of my salary is paid by the Oz governement into my super scheme. I also chose to contribute to my superannuation. The Irish system for the ATC pension scheme is not unique.

- ATC is an integral component of the Safety Management System of any ANSP and aviation in general. Any change to ATC, no matter how minor, has significant consequences for the Safety Management system of that ANSP and must be carefully managed. Consequently major changes to ATC technology and procedures, e.g. 2 ATC controlled sectors to 1 ATC sector, need to have extremely robust safety assessment procedures during development and implementation.

So I've found some of the comments by the like of pottwiddler and sober lark to be disingenuous, and needlessly confrontational. You're (that's you're not your, learn English sometime fool) posts display your lack of understanding of the entire issue and indeed how the aviation industry works.

Get the facts before you express an opinion.
DirtyPierre is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 00:45
  #110 (permalink)  

More than just an ATCO
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Up someone's nose
Age: 71
Posts: 1,768
You're (that's you're not your, learn English sometime fool) posts
I think you'll find it is "your" in this sense
Lon More is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 01:00
  #111 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ireland
Posts: 35
dick n cider&dirty pierre two great posts im not ATC (mere ppl holder) and have found no matter were i fly be it ireland or the USA the controllers have been very accomadating.

the problem in Ireland with big companies is there using the downturn to beat there employees t&c's down while the mgrs get bonus&perks for doing this.
our govt have pitted public service against private sector in a hope of divide and conquer
daveyb is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 01:26
  #112 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ireland
Posts: 72
Got my P60 this week. With my Gross earning for the year listed.
Yes It's less than 230K
Yes it's less than 160K
Yes it's less than 115k, considerably less.
I thought 115K was the average basic, yet my gross covers every cent I recieved for a 12 month period and I am more than half way up the payscale.

Can I write to IAA management to ask where the shortfall is?
Have they payed me for only part of the year?
Answers on a postcard please to IAA.

When you write to them advise them that I never compromise safety, regardless of circumstances, traffic levels, staffing levels or lack of reductions in traffic flow while coping with new work practices or procedures (that's "technology" by the way.)

My first and furthermost thought every day at work is the safety of the flying public (including pilots believe it or not.) Even MOL on a plane can buy a scratchcard at his leisure safe in the knowledge that I am doing my utmost to make sure he gets to his ADES as safely as I can possibly manage.

History has shown where even though Inquiries into Accidents show the ANSP at fault, dead passengers' relatives can take it into their own hands to murder the controller at fault. This to me seems a little more serious than "mispractise" or whatever it's called in the medical circles when a doctor gets sued for a wrong decision. Yet a doctor is credited with a high salary for his level of responsibility.

Am I wrong to expect the same.

I know someone who lately survived a bus crash when the driver fell asleep at the wheel. Recompense; Nil. I admire pilots. ........ I don't get it personaly (wrong anorak,) but I get that they are passionate about what they do. I too am passionate about my job as an ATCO. I enjoy and embrace the challenge.

Pilots fly several tonnes of metal through the air at hundreds of miles an hour to bring people on holidays "or just their mail." Every time they start a shift they assume a huge responsibility. Me too, no less, in that I try to keep them apart. I am willing to do this with a great bunch of colleagues on both sides of the RT and am saddened to see people at each others throats in this and many other Threads.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that together we are bigger than what the Media paint us to be at our lowest perceived moments.

Trust us when we say Safety First, but don't mock us when we expect to be accordingly remunerated.

thorisgod is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 01:42
  #113 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The land down-under
Posts: 127
Thorisgod - Thorisgood! Well said sir, madam or honorific applicable to hermaphrodites if you be one.

Dick N. Cider is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 08:51
  #114 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Ireland
Posts: 64
Thorisgod, that is the most sense I have seen on this topic, well done.
Topcover is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 09:08
  #115 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Hotel Gypsy
Posts: 2,831
Sorry chaps, gone tech so twiddling my thumbs again. I see the discussion has gone off in a "because we're worth it" direction. Can someone refresh me as to the reason for the strike? I thought it was suspension of colleagues due to new working practises.
Cows getting bigger is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 09:41
  #116 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Dublin
Posts: 951
Thoris, but lets not forget of your earnings over 30% extra has also gone into your pension. For some reason in your calculations you don't see it as money received so I wonder if you would you miss it if it was taken away or reduced?

You need public opinion on your side so why not give the proper figures. In your case for example, what are your projected retirement benefits, death in service or disability benefits?

Averages forget it. What's a 25 year old on? What's a 42 year old (red) on? What's a person close to retirement on? Don't be shy.

Then, why are you the second highest paid (by a long shot) ATCO's in Europe? What do you have to do that is different from your less well paid conterparts in other countries?

I sincerely hope there will be something in the agreement next week that prevents you lot holding a country to ransom like you did last Wed.

Last edited by Sober Lark; 23rd Jan 2010 at 09:52.
Sober Lark is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 10:22
  #117 (permalink)  

PPRuNe Bashaholic
Join Date: Jun 1997
Location: The Peoples Alcoholic Republic of Jockistan
Posts: 1,439
I sincerely hope there will be something in the agreement next week that prevents you lot holding a country to ransom like you did last Wed.
Yep, let's hope the Labour Court beat the IAA around the head and order them to comply with things which they have signed up for. Then there would be no need for any industrial action would there ?
10W is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 10:51
  #118 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The World
Posts: 136
I wasn't going to bite in this topic but here goes:

Then, why are you the second highest paid (by a long shot) ATCO's in Europe? What do you have to do that is different from your less well paid conterparts in other countries?
Not even close to being true.

If you're going to come out with allegations like this in a public forum, back it up with facts.
west atc is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 12:00
  #119 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: southampton
Posts: 223
what are your projected retirement benefits, death in service or disability benefits?
i wouldn't imagine thats any of your business. want to share the same info with us?

What's a 25 year old on? What's a 42 year old (red) on? What's a person close to retirement on? Don't be shy.
bottom of the scale, middle of the scale and top of the scale
1985 is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2010, 14:27
  #120 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 193
I would like comment on this thread and provide a bit of a summary. I stress that I don't have any details but am only collating rumour from this website.

I don't approve of striking out of process (there wasn't 24 hours notice for this strike). However, the reason for the strike seems entirely reasonable. The mere mention of ATCO wages by IAA management has twisted this issue into something it is not. From what I can guage there are two main issues:

1. A new system tool was introduced which meant that a single tactical controller is now on a position which was previously manned by two - a planner and a tactical. This is akin to improving an aircraft FMS and decreeing that that a First Officer is now not required on the flight deck. This change was not discussed but was enforced. 15 controllers refused to work on grounds of safety and were suspended without pay. This appears to me to be entirely unacceptable and the controllers have my full support.

2. A 6% pay rise was agreed as part of a previous negotiation. I can't find confirmation of this but it is my expectation that there was a compromise on terms and conditions to secure this rise. With the downturn in the economy IAA management has now attempted to renege on this agreement and IMPACT are pursuing legal action for breach of a contract. How would you feel if this was you?

The controllers went out on strike ONLY for reason ONE above and reason one ONLY (probably because they felt confident that they would win their legal process on reason two). IMPACT told IAA that all ATCOs would return to work immediately if their colleagues were reinstated. This was the only demand and instead IAA released details of their wages to newspapers and goaded MOL into what he does best. It's a dirty underhand tactic that has worked wonders judging by the responses on this thread from pilots and engineers furious that they are not as well renumerated as their industry colleagues.

So here is some of my opinion:

Earlier somebody scoffed at the fact that only 5 GCSEs at C or above are required to apply to be a controller and implied that this in some way means that it is not a skilled job. It is internationally recognised that an air traffic controllers license is equal to a batchelor degree (this is true when applying for immigration in many countries) however this is not the point. The point is that almost everybody on this website could therefore have applied to be a controller. This is not a cartel, not a secret society but a career and profession open to anyone. If you're 18 and straight out of school, apply, if you're 25 and don't like your job or have just finished your PHd in whatever, apply; if you're 35 and working elsewhere in the industry aggrieved that you don't earn as much, apply. We'd welcome you with open arms since we're constantly short of controllers. Which brings me to my next point.

If the wages, terms and conditions are so favourable how on Earth are virtually all countries short of controllers? Why is the world and his wife not applying to work in ATC? Well, in the short term they do. 5000+ people applied for my course and just 28 were selected. 16 made it from college to unit and 10 or so acheived validation (only 7 at first attempt). ATC is a highly skilled, exacting profession with standards of safety second to none in industry. Any industry, in my opinion. It is for these reasons that it is so difficult to become a controller. Put simply there are not that many people capable of doing the job efficiently and safely. It takes confidence, skill and a certain demeanor in proportions that are hard to quantify.Training processes are under constant review to improve the chances of people success but when it comes down to that last validation board the reason you don't worry about bumping into someone else when you jet off on holiday or leave for that business meeting is that a controller's license is not granted unless that person is safe.

Henceforth, over the years controllers conditions have improved ahead of the curve of wider industry for two reasons:

1. To attract enough people such that the pool is large enough to find those whom are capable.
2. Those in the profession are in high demand and have extensive bargaining power to improve their conditions since they know that they are a highly skilled minority.

Do not begrudge them their money. They enjoy it, and some applied because of it. However it takes more commitment and drive than simply money to succeed at a complex unit and therefore, I don't think I know a single controller who puts his wage ahead of the travelling public. It's part of that complex make up that ensures a person is suitable for the job. Irish controllers were in the street and not in their operations rooms for the safety of the travelling public. If you can't believe that because it wouldn't be you, or you can't believe that it can't not be about money then perhaps you shouldn't bother applying since your outlook on life means the odds of a successful validation are already against you.

Rant over.

Finally: IMPACT. What an unfortunate acronym for any organisation associated with Air Traffic Control.

Last edited by hangten; 23rd Jan 2010 at 14:55. Reason: Typos!
hangten is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.