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Irish Air Traffic Controllers to be suspended

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Irish Air Traffic Controllers to be suspended

Old 20th Jan 2010, 15:58
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Only for Ryanair half of you would not have a job so don't get smart!
Ummmmmm Ryanair aren't half the traffic anyone works. So i guess thats a silly statement. Oh and Easyjet would be bigger so we'd still have jobs.

what is unprofessional about ensuring all ryanair aircraft fly the full flight planned route at standard speeds?
Nothing at all. They'd get what they wanted if they filed the correct routes and filed levels that actually matched what they want instead of 8000 feet lower.

As i see it, i'm a bit unsure about the controllers removing themselves from projects due to union advice. However, if those projects are above and beyond what they actually get paid to do then they could have done that at any point and the IAA should not be allowed to suspend them for only wanting to do their jobs and not do any unpaid additional duties.

And as i've read it the 6% rise has already been agreed and the IAA now don't want to pay it. Thats their own fault for agreeing to it.
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 16:07
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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Ummmmmm Ryanair aren't half the traffic anyone works
Ummmmmm they are if your in Dublin. I was talking about Ireland.
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 16:21
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
Hopefully the euro atc's don't take the lack of support and understanding to heart and stop supplying the endless short cuts to save their fuel............
Quote:
Thank you Ryanair for giving yet another reason to delay you!!!! Hope you enjoy holding patterns!!!
And these are suppose to be professionals! Ha ha

Due to industrial action by overpaid and underworked air traffic controllers in Ireland, Ryanair has been forced to cancel 52 flights today (20th Jan) affecting over 6,000 passengers. Please see the below list of cancelled flights which were scheduled to operate to and from Ireland today (20th Jan).

Passengers affected by these flight cancellations should seek compensation from IMPACT General Secretary Peter McLoone at [email protected] or on +353-1- 8171529.

Traffic at Irish Airport fell 15% in 2009, and is set to fall further. National air traffic controllers are seeking a 6% pay rise, yet their workload has reduced by 25%. These overpaid air traffic controllers should agree to substantial pay cuts to reflect the reduced productivity being demanded of them at Irish airports this year.
And these are supposed to be professionals..............

The IAA don't give the short cuts, the controllers do. So are you going to support the people who support you or are you going to jump in with the suits and bean counters. Obviously they have made their choice.
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 16:40
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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So no more "direct lapmo" then? Ah nuts!!!
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 17:14
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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I wouldn't give O'Leary and his madmen the time of day.

According to him, his pilots get 110,000 Euros a year. All that to put the gear up and down and select and deselect the autopilot for the 99% of the flight it's engaged. Now that's overpaid and underworked !!!

With tongue back in cheek, I do think the Irish union have made a big mistake of not trying to win the media war by coming out with facts and logical arguments to put their case. And suggestions on here that it should all be kept secret from customers and others in the industry is simply naive. Be matter of fact and point out the agreements which are being breached. Take things along the legal route, and let the courts decide. Not the IAA, or the public, or the rabble rousing pilots on here.
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 17:45
  #46 (permalink)  
StandupfortheUlstermen
 
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Blunt and to the point as always ew.

Look, if the tw4ts at the IAA agreed a 6% deal for 2010 and now realise they have cocked it up then that's their fault. Problem here is that they have a better PR machine than Impact obviously do. That coupled with the fact that most members of the public think we use ping pong bats at work makes the ATCOs look overpaid and greedy. Impact need to decide if they're prepared to go all the way otherwise they will be broken for a very long time.

Good luck on this one guys.

As for 737, forgive him for he knows not what he does. If he knew what he was doing, he'd be an ATCO, not a bus driver with stripes!
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 17:47
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Cool

Is there any truth in the rumour that the new technology was to directly bill the M O L circus 1,000 euros for every direct-to?

Come to think of it that would pay for all the ATCO's salaries and my visits to the bathroom on "Cry-on-air" if I were ever to be that desperate to "fly" with them.

OK, back to my ferry journey.

On the beach
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 18:01
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Standardnoise,


If he knew what he was doing, he'd be an ATCO, not a bus driver with stripes!
I'm in support of the ATC guys on this one purely because I'm friendly with some involved and know exactly whats going on. Making statements like this don't do your profession any favours, especially from someone with over 1100 posts. Without these bus drivers with stripes you wouldn't have a job, just as I wouldn't without you guys. Perhaps less of the emotion is called for.
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 18:23
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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As an outsider looking in (ATCO, but not IAA), I have looked at the posts on this subject and the links provided on both this thread and the one running on R&N.

Some pertinent points - gleaned from what I have read, not verified because I don't have the access.

1. The new technology that has already been implemented has, according to Eurocontrol (a separate yet very authoritative body), resulted in a decrease in airspace capacity.

For the non ATCOs out there what that means is (assuming that airspace sectorisation remains the same or very similar to what it was pre new equipment) that rather than simplify things for the ATCO, the new technology has made some tasks more time consuming. Put simply, this means an increased workload per aircraft. To safely handle this, capacity has to be reduced to a manageable flow figure.

Non ATCOs may wonder why new technology would be introduced if it did not increase capacity or, at the very least maintain it - the answer is sometimes very simple... economics. The new technology may have been introduced as a way to reduce support staff numbers, thus cost.

2. New working practices being introduced that reduce the number of controllers on per sector from 2 to 1... despite increased workload due new technology.

Again, the question of safety arises.

3. IAA are reneging on a pay deal they had previously agreed to.

Now the Irish ATCOs are claiming that the IA is in support of their suspended colleagues and not pay. No doubt pay will be in the back of their mindes - only natural if you've been promised soemthing and it has been taken away from you.

However if points one and two are indeed correct, it seems to me that the ATCOs are actually concerned about the impact on safety and may well be the very reason their colleagues refused to support the projects.

For the non ATCOs out there, don't be fooled into thinking that new technology is always good technology (unless you are an accountant trying to cut costs).

It's very easy in the current financial climate for any employer to play the 'pay' card, sometimes you have to look beyond headlines to get to the meat of the matter.

Jumping to conclusions or dismissing statements from ATCOs invovled, in the manner that Mr 737-500 does isn't really what one would expect from a professional who is employed to engage brain and to work things out for themselves. I'll bet a months salary that 737-500 has never visited an ATC centre and as such, doesn't understand fully the task of the ATCO there, or how that task is achieved.


Now I'll state again, as I did at the top, that the 3 points I have mentioned are not verified by me, but gleaned from the posts and articles I have read, therefore I cannot vouch their veracity. However I am more than happy with my assertation in the final paragraph re 737-500s understanding or exposure to ATC
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 18:30
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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I'll bet a months salary that 737-500 has never visited an ATC centre and as such, doesn't understand fully the task of the ATCO there, or how that task is achieved.
Just for the record I have visited Cork TWR/APP and Shannon ACC and I am well aware of how stressful it is. But surely they are not doing themselves any favours the way they have gone about things? And now they have stopped giving shortcuts and in one airport not filing local flight plans which they have done for years. Is it not getting a bit silly at this stage?

anotherthing whos jumping to conclusions now? I look forward to this months cheque
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 18:32
  #51 (permalink)  
StandupfortheUlstermen
 
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As indeed I have friends who are 'bus drivers with stripes' and they take it in the spirit of fun without having a chip on their shoulder, even a lardy chip.

BTW, having over 1100 posts (it's actually many more but they reset it a few years ago) doesn't turn you into Sigmund Freud nor does it stop you having a sense of humour.
However, as a pilot, if you're not happy in the ATC forum, feel free to leave if lest your sense of humour is irreparably damaged. I don't feel the need to tramp through the pilot fora shouting the odds, perhaps you could exercise a similar habit.

737-500
in one airport not filing local flight plans which they have done for years. Is it not getting a bit silly at this stage?
Yep, but you can be sure that this hasn't been done by the guys on the 'front line', it'll have been thought out by some office wallah who won't have to put up with phone calls from pilots aksing why they can't file a plan locally. There is technology out there that, once installed, won't necessarily work with existing software/hardware, but overall is a better bit of kit, it however, means that ATCOs/ATSAs can't file plans locally.
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 18:43
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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However, as a pilot, if you're not happy in the ATC forum, feel free to leave if lest your sense of humour is irreparably damaged. I don't feel the need to tramp through the pilot fora shouting the odds, perhaps you could exercise a similar habit.
Well not wanting to hijack the thread over something trivial, can I just reiterate what I said in my previous post. I am in support of the current action by the ATC personnel despite being financially down due to a lost day of work with possibly more to come. I personally know some of those suspended. I know the facts involved, not the spin. As such I am entitled to my comment here regradless of the forum. The chip is not on my shoulder I assure you.

Last edited by Lord Lardy; 20th Jan 2010 at 18:54.
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 19:06
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Standard Noise. The procedure that has been followed for the past few months at this airport(since the new tower was opened) was that we gave our flight plan details, ATC put the details into the computer and gave us a squawk after a few min after the computer assigned us one. However today they said because of the work to rule we would have to file a "proper" plan. Oh well it looks like we need to get used to this because this dispute is going to get much worse I think
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 19:33
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Get back to work

Lads,

I think you all do a great job, it must be hard listening to all nationalities of pilot wanting this and that, and at the end of the day its you guys who are the first line of defense in preventing accidents but this action is just wrong.

Like the muppets that are Aer Lingus Pilots , you are not living in the real world. Can you honestly say , giving the economic and industry conditions that this behaviour acceptable. Thankfully as a taxpayer I dont contribute to the ridiculous salaries they still pay in Aer Lingus anymore but I do contribute to yours, and If I had anything to do with it Id do a Ronald Regan and give you an ultimatum, get back to work of join the massive dole queue.

This public sector wasteful bulls*** has had its day
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 20:55
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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A couple of points.
Firstly, to those (such as 'homerj' above). ATC is, indeed, a modern form of 'the public service'. ATCOs don't receive large performence bonuses, profit share, or any other such benefit. The flipside/upside of that is; they get their salary week in, week out. They don't get a large whack when times are good. They do receive small, negotiated, periodic percentile increases (regardless of what is happening in the wider economy, and regardless of how anyone feels about that- this point alone could require it's own thread).
What is so hard to understand about that?

On the other hand, ANSPs are often managed by individuals whose remuneration has a large component derived from performence driven elements. These people will do anything, ANYTHING to obtain said payment. This includes ignoring/disregarding said agreements with said ATCOs. It includes cost-shifting to airlines (something that I am constantly amazed the airlines either don't understand, or wear without qualm). It includes, shall we say, 'pushing the envelope' regarding safety in manning levels etc. Unfortunately, often the only way ATCOs can 'push back' is with industrial action.
So, to all those crapping on about the wisdom or lack thereof about IA, ask yourself this: if the manager's bonuses suffered when IA disrupted services, do you think it would ever happen?

Put the blame where it belongs. The union doesnt pick the fights. It just fights them.
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 21:39
  #56 (permalink)  
StandupfortheUlstermen
 
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they said because of the work to rule we would have to file a "proper" plan.
As in file it with Flight Plan Reception (assuming Dublin has one) rather than locally? It all depends on whether it was actually part of their job to file plans for you or just something they did as a courtesy. With commercial airlines, they have an Ops dept to do that sort of thing and it's not usually up to the local ATCU to do it. Was there a local agreement for the non-com operations that ATC would file all plans? In my experience, this has been done as a favour to non-com operators rather than a right that they can expect. I am speaking from a UK based perspective though.
Look at it another way, if there is something you do that helps the operation but isn't strictly part of your job, and your employer insists that you do it despite not sticking to what it has agreed to do, the first place you would look to cut back on in a dispute would be those non-obligatory tasks, is it not?

Anyhoo, EW and co are still hard at work up at Muckamore Intl and I'm sure they would be willing to get you out to East Mids or Birmingham on time. It's only a couple of hours up the island by road.

That said, Up The Workers, make an Impact!
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 22:11
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
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Ya there must have been some sort of local agreement between ATC and the local GA fleet. In Cork we normally file the plan with ATC for any flight staying inside 25NM. Outside this we have to fill in the flight plan form and fax it to Shannon AIS.


Anyhoo, EW and co are still hard at work up at Muckamore Intl and I'm sure they would be willing to get you out to East Mids or Birmingham on time. It's only a couple of hours up the island by road.
Thats a good idea, pity I live in Cork it will probally be the ferry for me
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 23:05
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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reply

Corsair,
as a result of management actions after previous dispute where members were threatened with disciplinary actions after posts on PPRuNe and to avoid the unnecessary annoyance that can be caused by reading some of these posts it was requested that members stay away from forums like this and facebook we get enough shit in the media.
IAA management are DEFINITELY on this forum hunting for anything that they can use and looking to create stress, again, another reason to stay off.

Look at the rumours and news forum its an IAA/ atco bashing shag- in designed solely to give the media the Impression that there is no support for ATCOs in the wider aviation community.

737-500
MAN the F**k Up. So you saved all your communion money and bought a pilots licence, well aren't you great, now you hear there's someone else in the aviation world earning more than you and you're off on your crusade.
As for the Ridiculous assertion the I was handed my job that marks you out as an immature tw4t.
Induction (one week) - This is classroom based and students are taught about the Irish Aviation Authority and given a general overview of the aviation industry.
Familiarisation (one week) - Students are introduced to the Shannon based operational areas of the IAA. Visits are arranged to local airlines and the Met office and students also take a trip onto Shannon airfield.
Team building - The class spends three days at an adventure centre for team building.
Theory module (three months) - Subjects include Air Law, Navigation, Meteorology, Theory of Flight and Communications. There are frequent progress tests throughout this module ending with written and oral examinations.
Basis skills training - The class is broken into three groups of eight. Students spend six weeks each learning Non-Radar skills, Radar skills and Aerodrome skills. At the end of this stage students are assigned to Cork, Dublin or Shannon.
Rating training (12 weeks) - Students are trained in a specific airspace at Cork, Shannon or Dublin.
On-the-job-training (OJT) (16 weeks) - Students are coached by on-the-job-training-instructors (OJTIs). These are qualified air traffic controllers who monitor the progress of the student. (shamelessly lifted from the IAA website)

Which part of that sounds like handed out to you??
Remember 737-500 you control 1 airplane (with your captain)
ATCOs control them all
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 23:34
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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B737-500 f/o


Ya there must have been some sort of local agreement between ATC and the local GA fleet. In Cork we normally file the plan with ATC for any flight staying inside 25NM. Outside this we have to fill in the flight plan form and fax it to Shannon AIS.
I think they have been doing you a favour in the past. Maybe you should check out the following site which will show you how to file a plan.

Irish Aviation Authority - Air Traffic Services & Technology

And just so you know that you are loved, here are some encouraging words from your boss.

I don't give a shite if nobody likes me. I am not a cloud bunny, I am not an aerosexual. I don't like aeroplanes. I never wanted to be a pilot like those other platoons of goons who populate the air industry.
Michael O'Leary
2005.
All the best, On the beach
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Old 20th Jan 2010, 23:35
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ireland
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Public Servant ............................ NOT!

Nope!, we are not public servants or civil servants, Irish taxpayers don't pay our wages. We are a Semi-state body that works in the Public Sector. Our operational revenue generated through the SAFE provision of ANS pays the wages of everyone in the IAA. Even the guys trying to screw us from above. We make money for them and they earn bonuses trying to deny us as much of it as possiblle. In a safety driven profession Controllers put safety first, not the bottom line.

Never, ever doubt that.
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