How old is too old?

[telerob]

Hi,

I have been reading these forums with interest for the last couple of months, and have decided to take the plunge and apply for a job as a trainee ATCO, and have confirmed the date for my Stage 1.

Thing is, I am 30 and this really will be a complete career change for me - is age an issue?

I fully believe I have the ability and desire, but with the US having a defined age limit in place, and with NATS being found to be ageist with their policies in February of 2009, is age a concern - more importantly, is my age a concern!

[Knackers]

I was 32 when I did my course. I worked like a dog and never found it easy. The younger you are, the better I reckon.

[divingduck]

Age is no barrier

One of the new guys here in Shannon checked out a couple of weeks ago...he is 48.
There are a number of guys on that same course that are well over 30.
It comes down to aptitude and desire, not age, anyone that tells you different is "holding on too tight".

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Telerob.. As is often the case, your profile reveals nothing about you so it is difficult to offer much advice. An aviation background of some sort would almost certainly help.

ATC is a highly skilled job and not everyone can do it. You don't have to be particularly clever or incredibly young but, as already suggested, age is not on your side. Those who become controllers in their 20s can often still do an excellent job in their 40s, 50s and later because they have "grown up" with the job. However, to start from scratch later in life can present problems and you may find that you get through the initial training but experience problems when you start live work. Unfortunately, no clever tests have yet been devised which will prove one way or another if a person will eventually validate.

Good luck, work hard and I hope you make it.

[Lon More]

Another problem, from the employer's side, is that you become a financially less atractive investment. For example, with a retirement age of 55, or after 35 years of service, controllers are obliged to retire at Eurocontrol.
So starting at 30, already 1/3 of your career is lost and to succeed at interview you will have to be a lot better than a 20 year old.

[telerob]

Thanks for all the replies!

Heathrow Director, in your experience is there a particular aspect of live work that becomes an issue following training for the "older" recruit?

I have no aviation experience, apart from a personal interest, and at the moment am in Retail Management .... hence the career change!

[ILS 119.5]

Please read Non-NATS ATC Tower training, my last post on training it may help.
RGDS ILS 119.5

[Gonzo]

So starting at 30, already 1/3 of your career is lost and to succeed at interview you will have to be a lot better than a 20 year old.

Errr, no you don't.

At least not with NATS.

As a great deal of NATS' interview is based on evidence of competencies one might argue that the older you are, the more life experience you have, the 'easier' the interview.

[Lon More]

Errr, no you don't

Errr, yes you do from a financial point of view - the return on the investment over, say, 20 years is much less than 35

[anotherthing]

Errr, yes you do...

Err no you don't actually. Gonzo is correct (helps that he actually does the interviews or did until very recently).

...the return on the investment over, say, 20 years is much less than 35...

Correct, but only if you compare two applicants who are succesful and validate - this is not a consideration of the interviewer. They are looking for someone who they believe has a good chance of being successful in training. End of story.

Your argument that if you are older you need to perform better at interview is incorrect - certainly within NATS.

If you are good enough at initial selection and the interview stage, you are good enough.

You are stating that someone has to be better at interview because of the financial implications of return of service. They don't.

[eglnyt]

Errr, yes you do from a financial point of view - the return on the investment over, say, 20 years is much less than 35

In the UK the age discrimination laws make it very difficult to take that into account. Having been caught out by that legislation recently you can be fairly sure that NATS will be very careful to ensure that the bar for 30 somethings is in exactly the same place as 20 somethings.

[Scooby Don't]

I started my course at 24 and was about the 4th oldest out of 30 or so starters. There were somewhat fewer finishers!

I really don't think the "return on training investment" thing is an issue. You are free to change employers, run away to the circus, become a househusband or whatever at any point after or during training. NATS may not like it, but I personally think that after 5 years of valid controlling, you've given a perfectly decent return of service. And that was on the basis of getting a good pension scheme and being treated with respect by management, both of which are questionable in NATS these days.

It's a fair point that younger brains are conditioned for learning, but it does depend on the individual and there is more to it than age-related learning ability. I worked harder at 24 than I would have at 18, and I'm pretty sure I would have worked harder still at 30! At 40, not that I'm there yet, I would not like to be starting out in ATC, but I don't see any problems with a motivated 30-year old candidate. Good luck!

[Lon More]

In the UK the age discrimination laws make it very difficult to take that into account

I wonder how an unsuccesful applicant would go about proving that. A very grey area.

[Amygdala1]

telerob when I was pilot training, in the late 70's I remember that we were
shocked that an organisation had just recruited a 35 year old inexperienced
person for an ab initio ATC course. With nearly 40 years on and a lot of that
in ATC I can say that practically, you are well within the context for a
successful career in ATC, and Heathrow Director's words are well heeded
and accurate. Organizationally you will need to deal with mind locks that
age discriminate, management that may never have been competent enough
to hold a rating, and boat anchors that are HR and many just don't have a
clue, their testing is not relevant, you will probably be subject to the whim
of a 14 year old and the system is designed to make their job easier rather
than get the best for the job with a little bit of effort (clearly I'm not a fan).
Basically if you can make a decision without having a group think and
meeting, are good with MDR and a bit of trig plus great helpings of common
sense you are well equipped to start. Add to this some strategic planning
skills (life can be so easy when you get this right), situational awareness
and some ability with those tricky new technology thingys and you are
even better equipped. As you progress through your career you will find
that if speed deteriorates and this will be well compensated by rat cunning,
workload management skills and more strategic management and separation
assurance skills. No reason why you cannot control till 65 if you still have
the goods. A really great and satisfying job often buggered up by peripherals
(mentioned above).
All the best. A1

[smellysnelly2004]

Telerob

There was a big age range on my course - from 18 to about 45.

There was no discernable pattern of the younger/older guys and girls being more successful.

I started when I was 28 and found the theory workload really tough after 10 years out of education. There is a huge bulk of material to learn.

There always seemed to me to be 3 groups of people as far as the radar was concerned - it came to some very naturally, to some not at all and others had to really work hard at it. The latter were in the majority.

As previous posters have said, it comes to down to determination, ability and application rather than age.

Good luck

[pugwash4x4]

Am starting college in Febuary and i'm 30, like you its a massive career change. However the age thing does bring some benefits

1. Its a big decision, and i've taken it in the full knowledge of the risks- i'm not going to tail after taking the risk!
2. Having spent almost 18 years in education, and then spending another 10 working my arse off and learning at work- the learning thing isn't a worry- just another skill to regain.
3. You will have dealt with stresses and strains in life already- at 30 you are far more confident than at 18, and certainly more mature
4. Passing interview will be WAY WAY WAY WAY easier- all the older guys at interview found the questions much easier than the younger ones!

Our age its already quite hard to career move- its already a HUGE motivaiton for me- you will do ALL you can to amke sure you pass!

Go for it and stop worrying.

[pugwash4x4]

p.s. my biggest worry is the physical side of things- whether i can pass the physical for the next 30 years- need to lose some weight, but now have the biggest motivator ever. Probably not a concern for you though!

[Captain Windsock]

Yes, age is an issue but you're ok. Despite a recent court case, that NATS lost, anybody older than their mid forties is going to struggle and probably wont make it. Can't teach an old dog new trickes etc. Joking aside there is scientific proof to this effect. Something along the lines that if you are up to speed in your job before you are 42 or 43 (can't remember which) you are likely to be able to carry on proficiently until retirement. However if you come in completely new after that age you are unlikely to ever achieve the level of proficiency that you need to see you safely through to retirement.

This reserch is from an university and NATS tried to use it in thier defence in the court case. Nevertheless they lost becase you cant discrimante on the grounds of age. Yet another case of the courts making decisions on things they don't understand and leaving aviation a less safe place than it was before.

However in your 30's no problem. Good luck.

[Odi]

I went through the College aged 33 (and 3 days!) without the benefit of any previous controlling experience although I had had the benefit of 20 months working as an AATC for the MoD (at a military base).

I had no trouble passing any of the practical assessments - unlike some of my (lot) younger colleagues - but where I really found the difference was in learning for the written papers. Here I really did feel the difference in age as I tried to get my ancient grey matter to absorb information sufficient to spout out for a written paper.

One of our course was bemoaning the fact that his mind was not used to learning as it was nearly four years since he had had to learn anything. He was amused when I pointed out that it was over fifteen years for me and that I couldn't really see his problem!!

What Pugwash4x4 said is also a factor: as an older person you have gone into it with full knowledge of the risks and therefore do not want to fail. You should also have life experience by now and be able to cope with the stresses and strains of college life.

What part of Scotland are you from?

[telerob]

Just want to say thanks for all the words of wisdom, and encouragement - I definitely am going to have my work cut out, and am under no illusions about what's required but I feel confident I can relearn the skill of learning...

I have the luck to live in Ayrshire, literally 20 mins from Oceanic House in Prestwick so hopefully if I'm successful it'll be the unit for me!