Spanish ATC "Work to rule"
In my little euro pilot world: there are 3 places where I sit back fat dumb and happy knowing that ATC has worked out a grand master plan for me…
Thank you ATCOs of: UK, Denmark, and Maastricht… rest of Europe not so much… some are almost as good as the above 3 some very far distanced…
This is never more evident than when crossing the Irish sea westbound…sadly you simply have to wonder what goes on…
Thank you ATCOs of: UK, Denmark, and Maastricht… rest of Europe not so much… some are almost as good as the above 3 some very far distanced…
This is never more evident than when crossing the Irish sea westbound…sadly you simply have to wonder what goes on…
I think the big thing that you blokes miss some times is the thank you at the end of the readback. I can tell you it really pis ses the controllers off when you organize a huge direct for a flight, sometimes coordinating with multiple sectors, and then not even receive a "thanks for that" from the people at the pointy end of the big metal tube. Ryan air is especially bad and so I think most won't go to the effort for them unless it helps with the traffic.
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WCF I am a failed controller who became a pilot instead. Controllers I expect will feel insulted being referred to as failed pilots.
I have never and will never ask for directs and instead wait until I am offered. Only the controller(s) know the full picture with regard to traffic separation. I applaud controllers who deny expectant pilots direct routings. It is their decision and their's alone; neither should they have to explain their reasons.
However, I would expect a polite explanation if a controller intentionally deviated us from our flight planned route to a waypoint that we hadn't planned.
I have never and will never ask for directs and instead wait until I am offered. Only the controller(s) know the full picture with regard to traffic separation. I applaud controllers who deny expectant pilots direct routings. It is their decision and their's alone; neither should they have to explain their reasons.
However, I would expect a polite explanation if a controller intentionally deviated us from our flight planned route to a waypoint that we hadn't planned.
Last edited by Kiltie; 4th Dec 2009 at 10:54.
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I wanted to stay out of this hoping someone would explain the rationale , but since no one did so far , let me have a go.
The “ good old days” are slowly going away and in today and future ATM world the “ client” of ATC is no longer the pilots , but the Airlines , the “ Operators” as Eurocontrol call them .
What hurts the Airlines today are the delays ( or so they hammered Eurocontrol and the FAA ) and they apply pressure for ATM to be more efficient and cheaper. The answer is developing capacity to eliminate delay and allow airlines to fly their preferred requested profiles. For maximizing en-route capacity , flight plan adherence is the key . And there you get what Gonzo posted earlier.
Just 2 quotes from that plan :
ATC ( i.e. the controllers) should do their best to accommodate the requests of the Airlines which now makes the FPL. In many Airlines the pilots have little choice in the FPL made . The problem comes when the flight ( i.e. the pilot on board ) asked for something else ( a direct or a different FL than the RFL) That comes mostly from the belief that the Airline flight plan is just a vague idea of what was needed to get the aircraft airborne on time, and that once in the air , the pilots can get back to direct and optimum FL as they would have filed themselves, as before.
I believe we are in transition phase, where pilots and controllers in today environment are caught between the old need to “ expedite” and the need to give the best service , and the current ATM “ global economic ” view . Slowly but surely the game becomes economic and no longer operational. If it is cheaper for your airline to fly 100 NM more to avoid X country high route charges, and if filing a lower than optimum FL gets you going ½ hour earlier , your airline might choose those options.
So there is no point getting at the other group about who is there for who and if RFL or DCT is a right or a favor. . We both Pilots and controllers have to adapt to a growing economic area where economics are slowly taking over old operational considerations.
Last one about Spain and "the good old days" : For those of you who remember Spantax and the Old under-Franco military-ATC in Falty towers-English done in that time over Spain, Flying there today is a paradise.
The “ good old days” are slowly going away and in today and future ATM world the “ client” of ATC is no longer the pilots , but the Airlines , the “ Operators” as Eurocontrol call them .
What hurts the Airlines today are the delays ( or so they hammered Eurocontrol and the FAA ) and they apply pressure for ATM to be more efficient and cheaper. The answer is developing capacity to eliminate delay and allow airlines to fly their preferred requested profiles. For maximizing en-route capacity , flight plan adherence is the key . And there you get what Gonzo posted earlier.
Just 2 quotes from that plan :
Use of DCT, while often desirable, can be the cause of sector
overloads, approach sequencing problems and timing issues
for ground handling.
“The operator shall ensure prior to operation of the flight that
the content of the initial flight plan correctly reflects the operational
intentions.”
overloads, approach sequencing problems and timing issues
for ground handling.
“The operator shall ensure prior to operation of the flight that
the content of the initial flight plan correctly reflects the operational
intentions.”
I believe we are in transition phase, where pilots and controllers in today environment are caught between the old need to “ expedite” and the need to give the best service , and the current ATM “ global economic ” view . Slowly but surely the game becomes economic and no longer operational. If it is cheaper for your airline to fly 100 NM more to avoid X country high route charges, and if filing a lower than optimum FL gets you going ½ hour earlier , your airline might choose those options.
So there is no point getting at the other group about who is there for who and if RFL or DCT is a right or a favor. . We both Pilots and controllers have to adapt to a growing economic area where economics are slowly taking over old operational considerations.
Last one about Spain and "the good old days" : For those of you who remember Spantax and the Old under-Franco military-ATC in Falty towers-English done in that time over Spain, Flying there today is a paradise.
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1985: To get everyone safely to the destination is the job of the Captain. Not the controller. The controller is responsible for seperating aircraft and ensure an orderly flow of traffic. On the shortcut thing you are right: they are not obliged to give you one.
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Easy solution for OP, change your sphere of operation. Just nip across to the "dark side" of the Med.
No slots, no restrictions, straight line all those pesky bends in the airways ? yep , straight to the end of my airspace.
Wanna fly 10,000 above the FPL level ? up you go boy, no-one else there anyhow.
Delays ? nope, " same day= no delay " , it's all de-stress not distress.
No slots, no restrictions, straight line all those pesky bends in the airways ? yep , straight to the end of my airspace.
Wanna fly 10,000 above the FPL level ? up you go boy, no-one else there anyhow.
Delays ? nope, " same day= no delay " , it's all de-stress not distress.
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Maastricht? I can tell you that if you fly east bound at high levels, the only reason you are on a direct is because Rhine Radar had organised it with them before hand. Big call.
Seriously. The Rhein boys and girls out east I find are very cooperative and not too restrictive at all.
As for the ones further south? They are without doubt the biggest pains in the arse I have to deal with.
I don't know why it's like that.
They might even be staffed by the same people.As for my mentality. I sit down and find out which danger areas are active and which directs we have. From then on, every aircraft automatically gets the best direct possible which is within my control. These directs will not be given only in circumstances where it would cause a conflict or make a traffic situation difficult to deal with. And I am nothing special. Everybody I work with has this mindset.
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Definitely a slow go
Who am I to think I am entitled to a direct?
Well, of course I am not. Still, I think there are several cues that point to a slow go going on right now in Spain. Departing Palma on the MEROS SID, we never had to fly the entire thing in the past. Even during busy summer time, at a certain point a direct was available. Today it was not, nor was it last week, and we were the only aircraft on the frequency.
Well, of course I am not. Still, I think there are several cues that point to a slow go going on right now in Spain. Departing Palma on the MEROS SID, we never had to fly the entire thing in the past. Even during busy summer time, at a certain point a direct was available. Today it was not, nor was it last week, and we were the only aircraft on the frequency.
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First interesting thread on here for a while, although I suggest that the title be changed to reflect the thread drift.
Anyway, my tuppence worth:
In European ops I make a point of asking for short cuts on every flight, and think its fair to state that 80% of my requests are obliged. I would estimate that only 20% of the time ATC beat me to it and offer a direct route.
Generally short cut requests are greeted with "stand by" and I assume that this means a call to coordinate the request. I don't fully understand what goes on behind the scenes in ATC, and I am sure ATC don't fully understand my operational constraints, but I am convinced that short cuts are mostly made available to those who ask. Those who don't ask (and I am not talking USA here, which we all know is completely different), don't get.
I estimated the 20% and 80% figures by the way - but just wonder if by any chance it bears any resemblance to the old adage - 80% of the work is conducted by 20% of the people.
Anyway, my tuppence worth:
In European ops I make a point of asking for short cuts on every flight, and think its fair to state that 80% of my requests are obliged. I would estimate that only 20% of the time ATC beat me to it and offer a direct route.
Generally short cut requests are greeted with "stand by" and I assume that this means a call to coordinate the request. I don't fully understand what goes on behind the scenes in ATC, and I am sure ATC don't fully understand my operational constraints, but I am convinced that short cuts are mostly made available to those who ask. Those who don't ask (and I am not talking USA here, which we all know is completely different), don't get.
I estimated the 20% and 80% figures by the way - but just wonder if by any chance it bears any resemblance to the old adage - 80% of the work is conducted by 20% of the people.
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Generally short cut requests are greeted with "stand by" and I assume that this means a call to coordinate the request. I don't fully understand what goes on behind the scenes in ATC, and I am sure ATC don't fully understand my operational constraints, but I am convinced that short cuts are mostly made available to those who ask
It will also (in the UK) depend on the mil. For example during the week the North Sea sector (S10/11) is restricted by danger area activity north of the airways and by training areas to the south so any directs are very limited. But at night and the weekends we get off-route status for all our traffic which means we can send aircraft all over europe to standard points for some traffic ie BEGOK for EDDF or GMH for EDDM or we juts ask MAAS and we get some wierd and wonderful ones. Half the problem we have is that the further away the point for the UK the less likely it is to be in the system so we don't know where its going to send you. Which can cause problems for separation. Sometimes directs are very useful i think its great watching three aircraft all at the same level going to different points fanning out on the radar.
Means we have more capacity because other levels are free.Another point is that sometimes we want to send you to a fix and the pilot isn't looking far enough down the the FMS list of points and will keep telling us its not on their route when we know full well it is.
I Have Control
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Thank you
Sometimes not acknowledging a "direct" is due to some diehard pilot who insists on using "correct" R/T, which of course does not involve "danke", "merci", "obrigado", 'gracias", "grazie", "chokran", "toda", "thanks", or whatsoever.
ATC's help is generally appreciated by the silent majority! Keep up the good work, colleagues.
ATC's help is generally appreciated by the silent majority! Keep up the good work, colleagues.
Last edited by RoyHudd; 4th Dec 2009 at 19:27.
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An interesting debate. Just to throw a little into the mix. Now obviously neighbouring Portugal might not be as busy in some area's as Spain, but I know for a fact that they endeavour to give every commercial and indeed light aircraft the shortest route possible and as far as I have watched them, 95% of the time you enter the system and get a direct to your exit of the area (names of the places escape me).
Now originally the thread pointed to AENA becoming private and the loss of spanish controllers T & C's. Now I don't want my post to be deleted, but I can understand they want to keep their 9*** per month salary and pension. this seems like a valid point, but I haven't seen spanish ATC strike....ahm... at least nothing like their northern counterparts with the curved bay.
One factor noone has explored is the general reluctance to give speed control. One of the causes of this are the pilots of spanish airlines that will remain nameless refusing to accept it. Spain has a very advanced ATC system in place already and at times the controllers situational awareness leaves a little to be desired, planes hopefully slow down on approach!
That said, I am starting to be concerned people have gotten too obsessed with being top of their fuel league table that they are forgetting the art of negotiation. In my brief experience I have been granted short cuts that I didn't even want, however, most situations where a direct is denied as previously stated have a genuine reason.
Lastly did the OP consider the controllers he might have been dealing with maybe didn't know how to explain in plain language why they couldn't acceed to your request? I'm not defending either party here just laying down some topics for further discussion.
Lets continue....
Now originally the thread pointed to AENA becoming private and the loss of spanish controllers T & C's. Now I don't want my post to be deleted, but I can understand they want to keep their 9*** per month salary and pension. this seems like a valid point, but I haven't seen spanish ATC strike....ahm... at least nothing like their northern counterparts with the curved bay.
One factor noone has explored is the general reluctance to give speed control. One of the causes of this are the pilots of spanish airlines that will remain nameless refusing to accept it. Spain has a very advanced ATC system in place already and at times the controllers situational awareness leaves a little to be desired, planes hopefully slow down on approach!
That said, I am starting to be concerned people have gotten too obsessed with being top of their fuel league table that they are forgetting the art of negotiation. In my brief experience I have been granted short cuts that I didn't even want, however, most situations where a direct is denied as previously stated have a genuine reason.
Lastly did the OP consider the controllers he might have been dealing with maybe didn't know how to explain in plain language why they couldn't acceed to your request? I'm not defending either party here just laying down some topics for further discussion.
Lets continue....
But you're right. Should've placed ''ultimate responsibility'' instead of ''job'' there.Thread Starter
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Aviator part deux - we live there, we work there almost all of our lives at least for the first and last parts of each rotation and sometimes the complete route. On this much do please trust me its happening exactly as I describe!
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Oh and will the idiot who started this whole "failed atco wannabe / failed pilot wannabe" thing please own up to it (if you have the brass) as I'm now getting hate mail from people hehe! Mods can you find that post please?
FOR THE LAST TIME I REPEAT - SOMEONE SUGGESTED I MIGHT BE A FAILED ATCO WANNABE WHICH I REPLIED TO IN KIND!!!!
That post has now been deleted by the mods and so as I have already stated this thread has become very corrupted!
Now I have nothing whatsoever but respect for controllers in general, the spanish now excluded! I am however starting to wonder about some on here now as this is starting to look like a pilot bashing thread giving controllers the ability to get stuff off their chests that's clearly been lingering for some considerable time!
To straighten other things on record - I generally thank controllers for directs, I do not feel I have a god given right to anything. I was not brought up that way.
Now please all, get over your "chips" and please lets get back to a normal disussion.
Its now been proved by one of the "doubters" that action IS going on, I still feel that it is a futile action that no-one will benefit from. There's just massive and damaging waste going on.
Thats my opinion and I am entirely entitled to that no?
FOR THE LAST TIME I REPEAT - SOMEONE SUGGESTED I MIGHT BE A FAILED ATCO WANNABE WHICH I REPLIED TO IN KIND!!!!
That post has now been deleted by the mods and so as I have already stated this thread has become very corrupted!
Now I have nothing whatsoever but respect for controllers in general, the spanish now excluded! I am however starting to wonder about some on here now as this is starting to look like a pilot bashing thread giving controllers the ability to get stuff off their chests that's clearly been lingering for some considerable time!
To straighten other things on record - I generally thank controllers for directs, I do not feel I have a god given right to anything. I was not brought up that way.
Now please all, get over your "chips" and please lets get back to a normal disussion.
Its now been proved by one of the "doubters" that action IS going on, I still feel that it is a futile action that no-one will benefit from. There's just massive and damaging waste going on.
Thats my opinion and I am entirely entitled to that no?
Yes, it's true MAD are not not offering/granting Directs but the biggest joke about this "work to rule" is that MAD Approach are now insisting on 180 kts at 12nm and 160 kts to 4 nm which is exactly what we've being trying to get for the last few years! Thanks Barajas, keep the work to rule going 
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Pilot <3 Controller
Hi everybody!
Well, first: I am a pilot, and that (at least for me) means that I love controllers! They aren't just there thanks to us pilots. Well, kinda, but still...
We are supposed to fly our routes, as planned, yup? Yup! Now, if the controller gives us short cuts, yeeaah! we are all happy. But if somebody gives you something for 'free', a gift, or whatever, do you still question that given gift? (Not talking only about aviation here!)
I have been visiting control towers, etc., and it's a mess. I personally would die on a heart attack, and have no hair left on my head, after just one session! And somebody mentioned Sevilla airspace, comparing it with London was it? Well, London=Madrid-Barajas for me. Sevilla is smaller compared to those, so less controller, etc., BUT lots of military aviation and test flying, GA, etc.
What those controller are doing is showing that they are understaffed, without going on strike. How? Directs, shortcuts, etc., helps to keep the flow flowing even better. So, just do your job without favors( <--- directs, etc.) and show in that way how chaotic it can get, with only doing their job, with those extras that they are throwing in for us pilots... for free! (Yes, for free! Because if on those ways something bad happens, they are more screwed then us being on the 'normal' airway!) And even if there is barely or even no other traffic (let's remember: our airplane is not the only one. And apart from airliners, the General Aviation is very(!) important as well!), there are always other flights planned, with there slots, etc. We pilots we SHARE the airspace. I wanna drive my Cadillac off the highway directly into my parking space, without having to pass my house first and then take on the exit #36, then drive back for 5 minutes, etc. But it's not MY highway, it's OURS!!!
The controllers have more to do, than just talking to pilots about instructions, etc.
I really don't understand some guys here. Why all this? Oh, no direct? Okey! Well, he must be busy, or got busted before for a similar action which turned out bad, or got headache and can't focus right now on all directs of all of our airplanes, or is expecting some military exercises, or... who knows? Or better: who gives a damn? If they are 'by the book', well let them do it. That is the NORMAL situation! Don't ask for something, that doesn't belong to you! Of course it's a pain in the a$$, to fly a full Departure in a clear sunny sky, with no traffic, but we are supposed to do that anyways, we just got used to the easy side... too used!Let's do our job then, right?
As for me, I am happy with the controllers, and not only Spain, but all over Europe. Yes, it's kinda different from the US, so what? Good ol' Europe IS different from the US and all the american continent.(Ever been flying in deep Africa?)
Been asked by passengers for shortcuts LOL but I see and understand that, if one does not know 'the world' of it... well, you do the math. Controllers have zillions of reasons for that, and finito! When pilots are on strike, all the people say "oh, why, they don't have no reason for it, but lots of $ and bla bla bla, for just sitting in the cockpit, and bla bla bla".(It's because they don't know our conditions, fears, lifes, our working 'world', etc.)
Let's not take for granted what is just a favor (and what could cost their job if something sh!t comes out of it).
Relax guys, let's do our job with pride, and know that we are all working together(!), and not against each other! (Each side just has his own stories, own life, own reasons, own "world"!).
Ok?
Well, first: I am a pilot, and that (at least for me) means that I love controllers! They aren't just there thanks to us pilots. Well, kinda, but still...
We are supposed to fly our routes, as planned, yup? Yup! Now, if the controller gives us short cuts, yeeaah! we are all happy. But if somebody gives you something for 'free', a gift, or whatever, do you still question that given gift? (Not talking only about aviation here!)
I have been visiting control towers, etc., and it's a mess. I personally would die on a heart attack, and have no hair left on my head, after just one session! And somebody mentioned Sevilla airspace, comparing it with London was it? Well, London=Madrid-Barajas for me. Sevilla is smaller compared to those, so less controller, etc., BUT lots of military aviation and test flying, GA, etc.
What those controller are doing is showing that they are understaffed, without going on strike. How? Directs, shortcuts, etc., helps to keep the flow flowing even better. So, just do your job without favors( <--- directs, etc.) and show in that way how chaotic it can get, with only doing their job, with those extras that they are throwing in for us pilots... for free! (Yes, for free! Because if on those ways something bad happens, they are more screwed then us being on the 'normal' airway!) And even if there is barely or even no other traffic (let's remember: our airplane is not the only one. And apart from airliners, the General Aviation is very(!) important as well!), there are always other flights planned, with there slots, etc. We pilots we SHARE the airspace. I wanna drive my Cadillac off the highway directly into my parking space, without having to pass my house first and then take on the exit #36, then drive back for 5 minutes, etc. But it's not MY highway, it's OURS!!!
The controllers have more to do, than just talking to pilots about instructions, etc.
I really don't understand some guys here. Why all this? Oh, no direct? Okey! Well, he must be busy, or got busted before for a similar action which turned out bad, or got headache and can't focus right now on all directs of all of our airplanes, or is expecting some military exercises, or... who knows? Or better: who gives a damn? If they are 'by the book', well let them do it. That is the NORMAL situation! Don't ask for something, that doesn't belong to you! Of course it's a pain in the a$$, to fly a full Departure in a clear sunny sky, with no traffic, but we are supposed to do that anyways, we just got used to the easy side... too used!Let's do our job then, right?
As for me, I am happy with the controllers, and not only Spain, but all over Europe. Yes, it's kinda different from the US, so what? Good ol' Europe IS different from the US and all the american continent.(Ever been flying in deep Africa?)
Been asked by passengers for shortcuts LOL but I see and understand that, if one does not know 'the world' of it... well, you do the math. Controllers have zillions of reasons for that, and finito! When pilots are on strike, all the people say "oh, why, they don't have no reason for it, but lots of $ and bla bla bla, for just sitting in the cockpit, and bla bla bla".(It's because they don't know our conditions, fears, lifes, our working 'world', etc.)
Let's not take for granted what is just a favor (and what could cost their job if something sh!t comes out of it).
Relax guys, let's do our job with pride, and know that we are all working together(!), and not against each other! (Each side just has his own stories, own life, own reasons, own "world"!).
Ok?
Last edited by Alfredo tp; 6th Dec 2009 at 20:20.
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Dear Alfredo tp
You have a lot of good points!
But, Why should’t Africa strive to improve to the professional levels of Sevilla? And why shouldn’t Sevilla strive to improve to the levels of London?
You have a lot of good points!
But, Why should’t Africa strive to improve to the professional levels of Sevilla? And why shouldn’t Sevilla strive to improve to the levels of London?