Spanish ATC "Work to rule"

[MANAGP]

Shanwick overhead - that's hell of a big aircraft!

[His dudeness]

Now then, from the eurocontrol broschure:

Daily across Europe, regulations are put in place to protect ATC
from receiving more traffic than the controller can handle safely.
However, it happens that more aircraft than planned enter these
protected sectors, exceeding their capacities by more than 10%,
which is regarded as an ATFCM “over-delivery”. When investigating
those reported occurrences in most cases it is found that additional
flights entered the concerned sector as a result of:

The guys at Eurocontrol tried it before will try it again - I this thing as part of their campaign against quick air traffic. Safety as an argument will win hands down every time, but in reality it is about staffing. Some of the national control agencies have squeezed the personnel to the limit and beyond. Apparently they are unable toget their act togehter.

■ Not flying at the initial requested flight level (RFL); or,

Which I will do for safety or ecoreasons, the winds and weather systems often just don´t stay in their IFPS approved ways.

■ Departing at times different from the original estimated off-block
time (EOBT) or calculated take-off time (CTOT); or,

Oh my god, shocking, there delays or ealier departures. PATHETIC.
Go and tell the pax, refueller, handler, apron controller, airport planners etcetc. I want to be home on time, not my fault.

■ Arriving in the sector earlier or later than originally planned; or

Again, wind, WX, ever changing loads etcetc.

■ Deviating from their original planned route
(often direct routeing (DCT)).

Aha, badbad controllers, givin us directs. We even more bad, requesting them.

If Eurocontrol continues to work their 'Blocksystem' as the rail road does, there is little flexibility in the system. Flexibility is provided by the PEOPLE controlling and their assistents. The grand scheme is: less and less people, therefore higher profits, and if our electronic gagdets cant give us the flexibility, lets make the system rigid, so that the friggin clients do what we want them to do.

Brussels is out of control, clearly.

[D O Guerrero]

1985 - No-one's having a go at controllers worldwide. Personally I never ask for directs in UK airspace because I know that you will do your very best for us and get us the most expeditious and commercial routing that you can.
Spain, however, is a very different matter even at the best of times. As an example, I regularly have to call twice or even 3 times to get a response on 1st contact, have heard pop music playing in the background (from the ATC end) and usually can't understand half of what's being said.

[plain-plane]

In my little euro pilot world: there are 3 places where I sit back fat dumb and happy knowing that ATC has worked out a grand master plan for me…
Thank you ATCOs of: UK, Denmark, and Maastricht… rest of Europe not so much… some are almost as good as the above 3 some very far distanced…
This is never more evident than when crossing the Irish sea westbound…sadly you simply have to wonder what goes on…

[west atc]

This is never more evident than when crossing the Irish sea westbound…sadly you simply have to wonder what goes on…

Are you talking high level or arriving into Dublin?

[eastern wiseguy]

Oh my god, shocking, there delays or ealier departures. PATHETIC.
Go and tell the pax, refueller, handler, apron controller, airport planners etcetc. I want to be home on time, not my fault.

No..simply keep your EOBT up to date and you won't be the straw that breaks the camels back. The sectors have a flow rate which is safe and expeditious.If you decide you can depart any time before or after your EOBT and you are joined by a couple of others the sector can be severely overloaded with all that that entails.

[plain-plane]

From a pilots perspective it seems most of the “funny stuff” in Ireland starts at low level and works its way up...

And it is certainly not limited to Dublin...
Btw. this is not about complaining, it is just the way it appears from my seat...

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Striker - that sentence does not imply I believe we have a god given right at all, simply that as reasonable people we are entitled to a reasonable response to a request. That is right and proper and respectful! If you can't see that and apply that automatically throughout your day then I am afraid you have a problem........ I consider that to be an integral part of being professional.

Controllers don’t have to give you an explanation or an excuse that you consider “palpable”.

See above!

It seems to me that some controllers are using this thread to get some more general stuff off their chests and the thread is drifting into an "us" and "them" situation.

1985 - I don't ask for directs more than once, I don't ask for anything unreasonable and if a request is rejected when I know its down to some purile "action" then yes I would like to tease that out of the controller. I don't usually ask for reasons why not but this situation is very frustrating for those of us operating throughout Spain. Are you really not able to see that?

As for preferring them NOT to go on strike - I'd far rather they did! That way, we simply don't fly, the wastage doesn't occur and we don't get wound up when we are supposed to be working together as a TEAM.

Finally, we can all play the game. Yes we can all request headings for non existant weather, opposite runways for performance reasons etc etc. Who wins? No-one that's who.

If you think companies leaning on AENA will get them to change their decisions then you better think again. The spanish don't like being bullied. I guess nobody does but the controllers in Spain mostly come from the same gene pool as the management so they won't bend to pressure IMHO.

No, this is a futile situation which can only serve to frustrate all who come into contact with it who choose to their job to a high standard.

[anotherthing]

Wing Commander Fowler - a question which has not been asked yet, which surprises me...

It seems AENA have made moves towards selling off the ATC service and the controllers are now in fear of their cushy packages. Their chosen "action" is to deny all aircraft short cuts forcing us all to fly the flight planned route.

Could you provide real evidence of the above, or is it just hearsay or supposition on your part because you have not received a short cut?


Also, you claim that you do not think you have a God-given right to a shortcut:

As a longer answer - where above did I imply that I or any of my colleagues believe they have a "God given right" to a short cut? I didn't. End of!

and later on you state

I don't ask for directs more than once,

which seems totally at odds with the statement

Any of you who have been flying through Spanish airspace this last week may well have noticed that you are being denied short cuts either without explaination or (if challenged) by lame and unpalpable excuses

which states you have challenged answers... so you don't ask twice, you just argue on R/T (professional) if you don't get one?

Just asking, because your very own statements contradict themselves... plus you provide no evidence that this is an industrial action as opposed to belief in your head... particularly when one reads a follow up post from Gulfstreamaviator (post number 8)...

Maybe your attitude (you are the one that mentioned "lame" and unpalpable") comes across on the RT (does your request sound like a demand?) and this is preventing you from getting shortcuts form the

Numpties

[1985]

I don't ask for directs more than once, I don't ask for anything unreasonable and if a request is rejected when I know its down to some purile "action" then yes I would like to tease that out of the controller. I don't usually ask for reasons why not but this situation is very frustrating for those of us operating throughout Spain. Are you really not able to see that?

Of course i can see its frustrating. Not getting something that you are used to getting is frustrating, not getting post for a week was frustrating but i understood why the posties were on strike, i didn't go around calling them purile and numpties and tell them to sort themselves out. The spanish controllers are trying to defend their livelyhoods and protect their pay and conditions. I actually don't agree that what they are doing is the way to do it but if it works....

If you think companies leaning on AENA will get them to change their decisions then you better think again. The spanish don't like being bullied. I guess nobody does but the controllers in Spain mostly come from the same gene pool as the management so they won't bend to pressure IMHO

It might work who knows, it would certainly work here in the UK. I don't know the in and outs of AENA's relationship with the airlines but i'd imagine Iberia would have some pull both within AENA aswell as the spanish government, and i'd think that other companies would have some pull in respective governments around europe who would then lean on the spanish who would then lean on AENA. We are all european after all .

As for preferring them NOT to go on strike - I'd far rather they did! That way, we simply don't fly, the wastage doesn't occur and we don't get wound up when we are supposed to be working together as a TEAM.

Why are you getting wound up by flying your flight planned route and burning the amount of fuel that you are supposed to burn? I really don't get that. You shouldn't be expecting short cuts. Do you carry less fuel than you should because you are expecting to get sent direct?

[act700]

I don't know about you folks, but I have a God given right to ask for directs!

Especially in a fee-based system! Isn't it service we pay for?

And for all you high and mighty controllers out there: you're there because of airplanes (and some of the dumba.. pilots that come with them), not the other way around.
afterall, there are non-radar procedures for airplanes to follow, but don't think there are no-airplane procedures for controllers?!

Now, I gotta go see my therapist, cause today we get to talk about controllers who refuse to give me directs!

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Another thing

you're logic is twisted. I standby my statement that I don't ask for directs more than once. Nowhere do I contradict that. Asking why (which I have only done in this recent period) does neither constitute another request nor an argument.

which states you have challenged answers... so you don't ask twice, you just argue on R/T (professional) if you don't get one?

Ridiculous! How is that an argument?

1985

Why are you getting wound up by flying your flight planned route and burning the amount of fuel that you are supposed to burn? I really don't get that. You shouldn't be expecting short cuts. Do you carry less fuel than you should because you are expecting to get sent direct?

The amount of fuel I am supposed to burn? Supposed as directed by who? I actually have a duty to burn as little fuel as necessary, that's what I am supposed to do....... Do you guys not have a duty to be as efficient as possible? If not then its no wonder your distant relatives are behaving in this manner!

[anotherthing]

W-C-F

Still waiting for your proof that this is not just in your head and that it is official action by Spanish ATCOs...

Meanwhile, the tone of your posts really does you no good, and your grasp of facts governing shortcuts are poor.

Like just because he's a frustrated failed pilot perhaps??? That'll be ok then would it?

Why does his reply make him a frustrated failed pilot? I'm an ATCO and I wouldn't want to be an airline pilot for all the tea in China .
Horses for course really. Of course, you're basing that statement on your apparent belief that pilots are superior to ATCOs (ex RAF aircrew are we??)

The ONLY reason not to is safety! Jeeeeesus!

There are numerous reasons for saying no to a shortcut, try reading the link from Gonzo.

Numpties

lame

unpaplable

cushy packages

God there’s always one eh?

when I know its down to some purile(sic) "action" then yes I would like to tease that out of the controller

not very professional use of RT eh?

the controllers in Spain mostly come from the same gene pool as the management so they won't bend to pressure IMHO

A very balanced set of quotes from a great

TEAM

player

unfortunately act700 seems to be from the same mould

And for all you high and mighty controllers out there: you're there because of airplanes

afterall, there are non-radar procedures for airplanes to follow

Now there's a valid argument... not.

[garp]

There can be a ton of reasons not to give a shortcut but an agenda with your employer isn't one of them. If anything, you want the airlines, or in this case the crews, supporting you. You as in an ATCO.
I have sympathy for the feelings of the OP, not so much for the manner he expresses them.

[radar707]

but don't think there are no-airplane procedures for controllers?!

There are at my airport, stopping those pesky vehicles from infringing the runway or doing something on the taxiway or apron that they shouldn't be doing!!

[Wing Commander Fowler]

Thank you Garp - please judge me by my original posting. Anything after that is less transparent as it could otherwise be as a result of some post deletion by Mods. Much of my responses are just that - responses to other postings which have sought to goad.

As for Anotherthing - this is something you may not be aware of too. The comment regarding failed wannabe pilot is a direct response to someone suggesting I may be a failed wannabe atco - now deleted. So, this was posted tongue in cheek.
With regard to substantiating the whole thing - I don't feel the need to do that. I didn't find it in a paper or on the internet, I have it direct from a spanish controller. Any further investigation is yours if you feel a real need.

Oh yes and "ex RAF aircrew are we?" says enough about you..........

[levelD]

Nope , pilots don't have a god given right to short cuts.As far as I am concerned , I've been trained and now train student ATCO's following this very simple rule : make use of directs when it suits YOU.

You can always challenge me when/if I deny your request for a direct.
You might get an answer , but not necessarily.

And quite frankly , I don't think I care too much whether the answer you might get satisfies you or not.

[1985]

The comment regarding failed wannabe pilot is a direct response to someone suggesting I may be a failed wannabe atco - now deleted. So, this was posted tongue in cheek.

No it wasn't, it was posted in direct response to my first post and at no point have i suggested that you are a bitter failed ex-atco trainee. What got my goat was the faintly condescending and rude manner of your orginal post.

Thank you Garp - please judge me by my original posting

Done that.

there are non-radar procedures for airplanes to follow

Yes there are but then you'd just be moaning about how inefficient they are and how they cause you to burn fuel you don't need to.

The amount of fuel I am supposed to burn? Supposed as directed by who? I actually have a duty to burn as little fuel as necessary, that's what I am supposed to do....... Do you guys not have a duty to be as efficient as possible

As directed by your FPL?? When you plan your route do you not do it with the intention of actually flying that route? And then upload enough fuel to fly that route regardless of wether you expect shortcuts or not? I presume that you would have some idea of the amount of fuel that you would expect to use flying the route. So when you fly the route you have planned you can't possibly burn extra fuel because you've already taken it into account (regardless of ATC - i'm presuming you take off and just fly to your destination).

[anotherthing]

With regard to substantiating the whole thing - I don't feel the need to do that. I didn't find it in a paper or on the internet, I have it direct from a spanish controller

Not a problem, this is a rumour site after all. Facts need not apply. One controllers mutterings obviously means it's company or union policy as far as you are concerned despite other professionals on here stating that they are still getting direct routeings.

As for the other coments, it's strange/convenient that all your derisory comments towards Spanish controllers etc are in response to postings that have been deleted. (That's apart from the slights in your original post,obviously and even though your second post which talks about failed pilots is s obviously in direct answer to 1985's post above it).

As far as I am concerned, if pilot uses RT time to question why a controller does not grant him a direct routeing, it infers that the pilot believes it is his right, otherwise they would accept first answer...

As for

Oh yes and "ex RAF aircrew are we?" says enough about you

probably a fair assumption on your part... I've not always been a civvy, and not always been on this side of the mic, so I have experience of the attitude that some 'professional aviators' have to other trades; fortunately I never had that trait myself.

Radar707 - to be fair, if it wasn't for aircraft you wouldn't need to control vehicles!! But it might be worth reminding act700 that fully automated aircraft already exist - it's a very long way off for ATCOs.

(though I'd rather not fly in a pilotless aircraft to be honest, regardless of the technology available right now)

Even if the OP was correct, I can see the story now:

Spanish controllers work to rule
Controllers doing their job as laid down shocker

Spanish controllers were last night accused of not giving pilots more direct routeings when asked. These direct routes take aircraft off the filed flight plans upon which the European ATC management system is based.
Critics say that flights are deliberately being made to fly the recognised routes which have been designed with safety and capacity in mind.
One Spanish controller admitted he was following the rules and doing his job. As yet, we have not been able to verify this from any other sources...

[Sick Squid]

As the moderator responsible for most of the deletions referenced above, let me actually, for once, come out of the shadows and dip an oar in.

Firstly, the tone of this thread is only marginally acceptable, starting with the originator. It is being watched, and if it deviates too much from sensible debate to zenophobic/ATCO-phobic or just generally-phobic rhetoric then those posts will go. No debate. Got it?

Second, since there actually seems to be a relevant debate starting to arise out of this thread reference Flow Management, can I refer everyone back to Gonzo's link above, please. Read it before posting. Basically, as pilots, if you are re-filed to avoid a delay DO NOT THEN REQUEST YOUR ORIGINAL FILED LEVEL just because it may be more beneficial in terms of burn/time etc. This is a constant thread that I have heard from talking to ATC supervisors, either on gash visits or TRUCE days.

Now, we all know there are regional differences in ATC, we all know there are industrial differences, just keep the trousers zippered and don't swing your own particular thing in the direction you think everything else should swing. If only the rest of this site would follow suit......

Squid