Loss of comms
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Loss of comms
I know the rules regarding total loss of comms but is it really practical to follow the filed plan when just having departed LHR on a ten hour sector?
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Any thoughts?
Thanks
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If you try it, it may give you the chance to get your desired routing and level with no delay, however the fighter jets flying in close formation do tend to distract the crew and passengers somewhat.
I’m sure it would also give you the opportunity to meet a lot of new and interesting people who would want to know all about you and what other career options you have in mind.
I’m sure it would also give you the opportunity to meet a lot of new and interesting people who would want to know all about you and what other career options you have in mind.
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Not at all and I'll ignore Bicantatto's pathetic response.
I was curious following the Easy Jet A319 AAIB report, 'loss of electrical power and total comms failure Alicante to Bristol' where:
"The captain elected to continue the flight to its destination because he had good weather reports for Bristol and feared that divergence from the planned route with no communication might precipitate interception by military aircraft with potentially serious consequences because, with curtailed aircraft capabilities, he might not be able to comply with intercept signals."
I was curious following the Easy Jet A319 AAIB report, 'loss of electrical power and total comms failure Alicante to Bristol' where:
"The captain elected to continue the flight to its destination because he had good weather reports for Bristol and feared that divergence from the planned route with no communication might precipitate interception by military aircraft with potentially serious consequences because, with curtailed aircraft capabilities, he might not be able to comply with intercept signals."
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Follow the advice in the national AIP for the area you lose comms in. This is usually repeated in flight deck manuals such as Jepps. Most areas will have general ICAO procedures to be followed, but some airfields or pieces of airspace, such as Heathrow, will have specific instructions which differ somewhat.
If you feel the safest course is to continue to original destination and the procedures allow you to do it, then why wouldn't you ? At least your flight is predictable and following procedures which everyone else is expecting you to. Making it up on the hoof will simply cause chaos for everyone.
Yes, you may be intercepted at some point, but if the fighter pilot wants you to do something other than standard procedure, they'll give you the appropriate signals. Otherwise you'll probably just get an escort from area to area to ensure that all is well and it's simply a technical problem on the flight deck.
I guess Bicontatto comes from a culture where folowing the published procedure is frowned upon.
HD, would you be happy with a non comm aircraft turning back and making his own approach path to LHR through a busy TMA in IMC ? The specific RT failure procedures for LHR are only published for INBOUND aircraft, not departures. Therefore departures would be expected to comply with the ENR AIP procedures. In VMC, that might enable you to fly back to LHR and land there. In IMC, then after a period of time and restrictions, you follow flight plan route and levels to DESTINATION. If you do anything else, then no one has a clue what you will be doing and where you will be going. It might even be construed as having terrorist implications and cause the use of force to be implemented.
If you feel the safest course is to continue to original destination and the procedures allow you to do it, then why wouldn't you ? At least your flight is predictable and following procedures which everyone else is expecting you to. Making it up on the hoof will simply cause chaos for everyone.
Yes, you may be intercepted at some point, but if the fighter pilot wants you to do something other than standard procedure, they'll give you the appropriate signals. Otherwise you'll probably just get an escort from area to area to ensure that all is well and it's simply a technical problem on the flight deck.
I guess Bicontatto comes from a culture where folowing the published procedure is frowned upon.
HD, would you be happy with a non comm aircraft turning back and making his own approach path to LHR through a busy TMA in IMC ? The specific RT failure procedures for LHR are only published for INBOUND aircraft, not departures. Therefore departures would be expected to comply with the ENR AIP procedures. In VMC, that might enable you to fly back to LHR and land there. In IMC, then after a period of time and restrictions, you follow flight plan route and levels to DESTINATION. If you do anything else, then no one has a clue what you will be doing and where you will be going. It might even be construed as having terrorist implications and cause the use of force to be implemented.
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"The captain elected to continue the flight to its destination because he had good weather reports for Bristol and feared that divergence from the planned route with no communication might precipitate interception by military aircraft with potentially serious consequences because, with curtailed aircraft capabilities, he might not be able to comply with intercept signals."(my bold)
Notwithstanding the procedure that says you continue as flight planned, which it seems this Easy Jet pilot followed, I suspect that the Easy Jet captain either doesn't understand intercept procedures, or was making up a poor excuse (though why he felt he needed to justify his actions if he was following laid down procedures escapes me).
Electrical failure, even total, would not prevent a pilot from being able to carry out instructions received from intercept aircraft...
Notwithstanding the procedure that says you continue as flight planned, which it seems this Easy Jet pilot followed, I suspect that the Easy Jet captain either doesn't understand intercept procedures, or was making up a poor excuse (though why he felt he needed to justify his actions if he was following laid down procedures escapes me).
Electrical failure, even total, would not prevent a pilot from being able to carry out instructions received from intercept aircraft...
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<<HD, would you be happy with a non comm aircraft turning back and making his own approach path to LHR through a busy TMA in IMC ? >>
I certainly would not be unhappy and have seen a few such incidents. In the UK we have very good radar cover so it's fairly easy to see what is happening and provide the necessary separation with other traffic; it's no big deal. On a 10-hour sector, which was mentioned in the original question, I wouldn't be happy if I was the pilot knowing that I might be out of radar cover for many hours.
I certainly would not be unhappy and have seen a few such incidents. In the UK we have very good radar cover so it's fairly easy to see what is happening and provide the necessary separation with other traffic; it's no big deal. On a 10-hour sector, which was mentioned in the original question, I wouldn't be happy if I was the pilot knowing that I might be out of radar cover for many hours.
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Sorry Guys if I ruffled some feathers but...
A 10 hour flight with a long transit over ocean entering US airspace and then flying over the continental USA with no comms....please
We all know what the book says, however I still contend that my version will be closer to the truth.
A 10 hour flight with a long transit over ocean entering US airspace and then flying over the continental USA with no comms....please
We all know what the book says, however I still contend that my version will be closer to the truth.
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Where did the poster mention the North Atlantic or being out of radar cover ?
He might be flying a clockwork mouse and only transiting European airspace. A few hours in a jet, but 10 hours in a low and slow prop aircraft.
If the consensus is for pilots just to do what they want and ignore published procedures, then why bother to have the procedures in the first place ? Why not just have everything inbound to Heathrow, for example, do what it wants and call it 'Free Flight' ?
We could also disband ICAO and just have everybody do their own thing worldwide. Think of the savings !! $$$$$$$$$$$$
He might be flying a clockwork mouse and only transiting European airspace. A few hours in a jet, but 10 hours in a low and slow prop aircraft.
If the consensus is for pilots just to do what they want and ignore published procedures, then why bother to have the procedures in the first place ? Why not just have everything inbound to Heathrow, for example, do what it wants and call it 'Free Flight' ?
We could also disband ICAO and just have everybody do their own thing worldwide. Think of the savings !! $$$$$$$$$$$$
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In the UK we have very good radar cover so it's fairly easy to see what is happening and provide the necessary separation with other traffic; it's no big deal.
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Yes I was just fielding the question on loss of comms and Talloway is spot on with the ICAO/Doc4444 book answer. That's what ATC expect us to do wherever we are in the world unless a regional agreement overrides that.
The dilemma of launching off to some far flung place and losing comms has always been at the back of my mind and no you wouldn't want to continue to follow the filed flight plan for 10 hours, or even one hour, but if you are IMC then you have no option. At the very least they know where you're going. Hopefully at some point you'd get VMC and land at the nearest suitable airport and 7600 should get noticed. My first post was just looking for an ATC input, some revised procedure etc. So thanks for your replies.
Incidentally the Easy Jet A319 not only lost comms but lost all flight instruments, transponder and TCAS (the latter for 10 minutes)Airbus faces demands for A320 series electrical systems improvement following EasyJet report
The dilemma of launching off to some far flung place and losing comms has always been at the back of my mind and no you wouldn't want to continue to follow the filed flight plan for 10 hours, or even one hour, but if you are IMC then you have no option. At the very least they know where you're going. Hopefully at some point you'd get VMC and land at the nearest suitable airport and 7600 should get noticed. My first post was just looking for an ATC input, some revised procedure etc. So thanks for your replies.
Incidentally the Easy Jet A319 not only lost comms but lost all flight instruments, transponder and TCAS (the latter for 10 minutes)Airbus faces demands for A320 series electrical systems improvement following EasyJet report
