Are you a Jersey Tower controller?
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Are you a Jersey Tower controller?
Hi Guys - just a quick question.
If a significantly faster a/c calls for push first, why do you then allow another a/c to push simultaneously thus reversing the order that the a/c arrive at the holding point for departure?
In this particular case both a/c were heading to the same destination. It must be infuriating for your collegues further down the line to have to keep passing speed and heading restrictions to the faster following aircraft in order to achieve separation. I know it was pretty frustrating for us in the following a/c.
Many thanks for any answers!
S.D.
If a significantly faster a/c calls for push first, why do you then allow another a/c to push simultaneously thus reversing the order that the a/c arrive at the holding point for departure?
In this particular case both a/c were heading to the same destination. It must be infuriating for your collegues further down the line to have to keep passing speed and heading restrictions to the faster following aircraft in order to achieve separation. I know it was pretty frustrating for us in the following a/c.
Many thanks for any answers!
S.D.
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Criss - I appreciate your direct answer, however, my point is somewhat being missed I fear.
When I go swimming with my kids at the weekend - I pay my £5 entry fee just like the man at the front of the queue, but I don't push in front of him because I've paid for the same use of the water/slides etc. So I'm not quite sure where you get the idea that paying the same for something gives you the right to push in?
However, I digress. My main point is, surely in order to reduce RT congestion in passing speed/hdg etc and in order to co-ordinate traffic more optimally, then why not start the ball rolling correctly on the ground?
I'm sure there are plenty of pilots who like nothing better to call ready to push the moment someone else has just received a clearance (with a cheery 2 fingered salute) - I am just surprised ATC allow it to happen - particularly as it screws their mates up further down the line!
S.D.
When I go swimming with my kids at the weekend - I pay my £5 entry fee just like the man at the front of the queue, but I don't push in front of him because I've paid for the same use of the water/slides etc. So I'm not quite sure where you get the idea that paying the same for something gives you the right to push in?
However, I digress. My main point is, surely in order to reduce RT congestion in passing speed/hdg etc and in order to co-ordinate traffic more optimally, then why not start the ball rolling correctly on the ground?
I'm sure there are plenty of pilots who like nothing better to call ready to push the moment someone else has just received a clearance (with a cheery 2 fingered salute) - I am just surprised ATC allow it to happen - particularly as it screws their mates up further down the line!
S.D.
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Easy - It allows you to take the mickey for years hence...
Dad no 1 in 146
Me no 2 in 737
He launched 5 mins ahead of me (a few single arrivals followed by a ALine delayed things) but landed 4 mins behind. He still buys me beer for my silence!
Dad no 1 in 146
Me no 2 in 737
He launched 5 mins ahead of me (a few single arrivals followed by a ALine delayed things) but landed 4 mins behind. He still buys me beer for my silence!
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Ask the Ops department
Sean Dell
I think you will find the answer to this question lies with the operations department like a lot of other problems they generate
To park the night stoppers side by side every night is asking for problems,in the morning only one can get on the runway first.
I think you will find going way back there was no problem as one airline was on the south of the pier and the other on the north side.
When runway 09 is in use first come first served.
When runway 27 in use a differant ball game.
Basically a management F up as they say,the workers can see the problem and management make the problem
I think you will find the answer to this question lies with the operations department like a lot of other problems they generate
To park the night stoppers side by side every night is asking for problems,in the morning only one can get on the runway first.
I think you will find going way back there was no problem as one airline was on the south of the pier and the other on the north side.
When runway 09 is in use first come first served.
When runway 27 in use a differant ball game.
Basically a management F up as they say,the workers can see the problem and management make the problem
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From your initial post one assumes that you asked for push almost simultaneously. It's obvious that if the other one asks for it while you're already disconnecting or finishing push, he should be told to wait, but otherwise, asking just 5 or 10 seconds earlier should not give you any priority. Put yourself in the shoes of this second crew - how much you would be frustrated waiting 4 minutes for your colleauges beside you to finish push and start taxi.
My "everyone pays" part was aimed at your statement that you were faster. All to often I see instances when a smaller/slower traffic is being pushed back and back in the queue ("give way", "give way", "give way") just because of being slower - they are also users of the airspace, and if we're not talking about a procedural airport, releasing a slower departure shouldn't block it for 10 minutes.
My "everyone pays" part was aimed at your statement that you were faster. All to often I see instances when a smaller/slower traffic is being pushed back and back in the queue ("give way", "give way", "give way") just because of being slower - they are also users of the airspace, and if we're not talking about a procedural airport, releasing a slower departure shouldn't block it for 10 minutes.
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GBALU - I thought there might be a bit more to this than meets t
he eye - thanks for your insight.]
For info:
Halfway through push back when other a/c called.
RWY 09 in use.
After dep - straight ahead, followed by 240kts speed constraint and multiple heading changes.
All avoidable in my opinion.
Criss - if it gives you a warm glow on a tit for tat basis, then - please enjoy it.
I'll try and bite my tongue a bit more.
ATB
S.D.
he eye - thanks for your insight.]
For info:
Halfway through push back when other a/c called.
RWY 09 in use.
After dep - straight ahead, followed by 240kts speed constraint and multiple heading changes.
All avoidable in my opinion.
Criss - if it gives you a warm glow on a tit for tat basis, then - please enjoy it.
I'll try and bite my tongue a bit more.
ATB
S.D.
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Sean Dell.... It shouldn't involve multiple heading changes and more work "down the line". Getting a jet through a clockwork mouse is a routine ATC move that probably occurs hundreds of times a day in UK airspace. Sure, if the opportunity arises then put the first one off first... but it's no big deal for ATC.
Yonks ago at Heathrow and aircraft called to pushback and was cleared to do so. Seconds later another aircraft called from stand B19 to push and he had an earlier slot time so the first aircraft was told to cancel push and wait until the other one had gone. Pilot said: "What am I to say to that?" ATC: "Wish I was on B19?"
Yonks ago at Heathrow and aircraft called to pushback and was cleared to do so. Seconds later another aircraft called from stand B19 to push and he had an earlier slot time so the first aircraft was told to cancel push and wait until the other one had gone. Pilot said: "What am I to say to that?" ATC: "Wish I was on B19?"
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Doubt it was a slot issue but that may have been an issue.
Having witnessed it most days though it does actually annoy us occasionally.
I'll bet you were in a jet Sean Dell and followed a Dash-8 Q400 out on your way to south London aerodrome. Jersey Zone are supposed to attempt some sort of streaming where possible too, that probably didn't help either.
Having witnessed it most days though it does actually annoy us occasionally.
I'll bet you were in a jet Sean Dell and followed a Dash-8 Q400 out on your way to south London aerodrome. Jersey Zone are supposed to attempt some sort of streaming where possible too, that probably didn't help either.
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Sean Dell - it is very difficult to provide a constructive answer to your question without knowing the full facts of the situation ie:-
Was the aircraft in front a light vortex wake category and therefore subject to a 2 minute delay behind you which would not apply the other way round?
Were there 3 aircraft looking ready to depart with one either side of the second one? This would give a much longer delay all round if the one ahead of you was delayed.
Was there a slot time to take into account? Not even necessarily for either of you.....
Was there landing traffic waiting to pass through the apron?
Was there landing traffic waiting for the stands that one or both of you were occupying?
Was there landing traffic that would affect the way in which you both got airborne? If the aircraft ahead generally is quicker to get airborne then a smaller gap that couldn't be used by you could be used by him.
Was there a third or fourth aircraft to take into account?
Did the tower controller end up with the same situation the day before, do it the other way round and the same aircraft with a different crew took forever to taxy off therefore unnecessarily delaying the other one?
As to the speed restriction and multiple heading changes are you entirely sure they were due to the aircraft departing ahead of you? They could also have been applied due to, for example, separating you from inbound traffic from Brest to either Jersey or Guernsey, separating you from inbound traffic to Guernsey or Jersey through ORTAC, separating you from traffic departing Cherbourg towards ORTAC.
The speed restriction is not that usual (although valid) but although may have been given by the Jersey Zone controller it may have been on the instruction of an en-route controller due to delays into an individual airfield or through a particular reporting point.
There are many, many variables to take into account in any situation and ATC in general will try and provide a solution that provides the safest most expeditious solution for everyone.
If you would like to learn more about it most air traffic units welcome visits and comments from crew in order that we all learn from each other.
Was the aircraft in front a light vortex wake category and therefore subject to a 2 minute delay behind you which would not apply the other way round?
Were there 3 aircraft looking ready to depart with one either side of the second one? This would give a much longer delay all round if the one ahead of you was delayed.
Was there a slot time to take into account? Not even necessarily for either of you.....
Was there landing traffic waiting to pass through the apron?
Was there landing traffic waiting for the stands that one or both of you were occupying?
Was there landing traffic that would affect the way in which you both got airborne? If the aircraft ahead generally is quicker to get airborne then a smaller gap that couldn't be used by you could be used by him.
Was there a third or fourth aircraft to take into account?
Did the tower controller end up with the same situation the day before, do it the other way round and the same aircraft with a different crew took forever to taxy off therefore unnecessarily delaying the other one?
As to the speed restriction and multiple heading changes are you entirely sure they were due to the aircraft departing ahead of you? They could also have been applied due to, for example, separating you from inbound traffic from Brest to either Jersey or Guernsey, separating you from inbound traffic to Guernsey or Jersey through ORTAC, separating you from traffic departing Cherbourg towards ORTAC.
The speed restriction is not that usual (although valid) but although may have been given by the Jersey Zone controller it may have been on the instruction of an en-route controller due to delays into an individual airfield or through a particular reporting point.
There are many, many variables to take into account in any situation and ATC in general will try and provide a solution that provides the safest most expeditious solution for everyone.
If you would like to learn more about it most air traffic units welcome visits and comments from crew in order that we all learn from each other.
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WW - I appreciate the time taken by you to respond to my post - thankyou.
In a nutshell, it was a very quiet time at Jersey, no slots involved, no arrival traffic and just us and the other a/c involved. ATC mentioned slower a/c ahead heading to same airport as us hence the speed control / hdg changes etc. I suspect that the most likely answer is...
However, I am well aware of the need to make sure the cabin is secure early as it is such a short taxy and despite reports to the contrary, I do not enjoy delaying other operators - no matter who they are.
ATB
S.D
In a nutshell, it was a very quiet time at Jersey, no slots involved, no arrival traffic and just us and the other a/c involved. ATC mentioned slower a/c ahead heading to same airport as us hence the speed control / hdg changes etc. I suspect that the most likely answer is...
Did the tower controller end up with the same situation the day before, do it the other way round and the same aircraft with a different crew took forever to taxy off therefore unnecessarily delaying the other one
ATB
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SD - very professional response, thank you.
Your comments are taken on board as we do (despite occasional appearances to the contrary!) strive to provide the best service we can.
ATB
WW
Your comments are taken on board as we do (despite occasional appearances to the contrary!) strive to provide the best service we can.
ATB
WW
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No probs WW
Oh and I do visit ATC as often as I can - it always helps me understand the way things work.
In fact I have a TRUCE day coming up - well worth doing I have heard.
Thanks for you input again, will try and bite my tongue a bit more and not be such a grumpy git!
Oh and I do visit ATC as often as I can - it always helps me understand the way things work.
In fact I have a TRUCE day coming up - well worth doing I have heard.
Thanks for you input again, will try and bite my tongue a bit more and not be such a grumpy git!
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Low Cloud
In and out of Jersey yesterday lunch time weather on limits, the NEW TOWER in the low cloud, how will Jersey be able to operate if they are unable to see the aircraft on the apron due the tower being in cloud??
I understand there will be no ATCA,s to help and only one controller in the tower is there any procedures being thought off??
With the Islands having a lot of low cloud over the year could this new tower end up being a bit of a white elephant in these conditions??
The approach yesterday lunch time was on limits and we think there was at least one go around if not more, there was also some diversions from the other Islands so will the airlines have to rethink on diversion airfields.
Could this be another backward step for aviation on the Island this could detract some new airlines.
I understand there will be no ATCA,s to help and only one controller in the tower is there any procedures being thought off??
With the Islands having a lot of low cloud over the year could this new tower end up being a bit of a white elephant in these conditions??
The approach yesterday lunch time was on limits and we think there was at least one go around if not more, there was also some diversions from the other Islands so will the airlines have to rethink on diversion airfields.
Could this be another backward step for aviation on the Island this could detract some new airlines.
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QUOTE
how will Jersey be able to operate if they are unable to see the aircraft on the apron due the tower being in cloud??
UNQUOTE
Just the same as they do anywhere else such as Heathrow.
I understand that EGLL has 'Tower in Cloud' procedures for just this scenario. Why don't you ask the 'NATS people' who you say are 'running Jersey' now to see if they can have a look at the Heathrow procedures and create some for Jersey?
Basically it's LVPs with the aircraft being able to see better than the Tower!
how will Jersey be able to operate if they are unable to see the aircraft on the apron due the tower being in cloud??
UNQUOTE
Just the same as they do anywhere else such as Heathrow.
I understand that EGLL has 'Tower in Cloud' procedures for just this scenario. Why don't you ask the 'NATS people' who you say are 'running Jersey' now to see if they can have a look at the Heathrow procedures and create some for Jersey?
Basically it's LVPs with the aircraft being able to see better than the Tower!
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Eye in the Sky, you are obviously not used to Jersey weather! The new Jersey Tower will be in cloud at least 10 times more often each year than the Heathrow one will be: it will be a regular occurrence every time there is a warm sector passing through. There will be low visibility procedures in force when the vis at ground level is fine whilst the tower controllers are in the cloud. It could be both farcical and irritating.
Sean Dell, you make a fair point. But could it be because Jersey controllers just LOVE giving aircraft lots of radar headings these days??
I am usually going to Guernsey, but get the benefit of the "new system of controlling" that Jersey espouse.
Sean Dell, you make a fair point. But could it be because Jersey controllers just LOVE giving aircraft lots of radar headings these days??
I am usually going to Guernsey, but get the benefit of the "new system of controlling" that Jersey espouse.
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QUOTE
Eye in the Sky, you are obviously not used to Jersey weather!
UNQUOTE
On the contrary, I have 8 years' experience of flying scheduled airline routes in the Channel Islands, so I am perfectly aware of the impact of a warm sector on operations at all three airports.Landing and departing minima are not affected by 'tower in cloud' procedures, only ground movement. Why would that be 'farcical and irritating'?
Eye in the Sky, you are obviously not used to Jersey weather!
UNQUOTE
On the contrary, I have 8 years' experience of flying scheduled airline routes in the Channel Islands, so I am perfectly aware of the impact of a warm sector on operations at all three airports.Landing and departing minima are not affected by 'tower in cloud' procedures, only ground movement. Why would that be 'farcical and irritating'?
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Riverboat - I think you'll find that the "new system of controlling" has a lot to do with changes to the airspace and changes in the type of aircraft using that airspace which impacts on both commercial and GA traffic.
Twenty years ago all GA traffic into Jersey or overflying the zone into Dinard or other French airfields was routed via Cap de la Hague and Flamanville and given zone entry clearance from there while only Guernsey and Alderney traffic were given entry dct from 50N ORTAC way. Unfortunately since the introduction of the French restricted areas outside of the zone all GA traffic is given entry clearance through 50N ORTAC. With all traffic routeing through the bottleneck between Alderney and 50N and only up to 3 thousand feet being available under R41 the options for separating traffic in Class A airspace are quite limited - hence an increased use of headings for GA traffic.
As far as commercial traffic goes, where as years ago the levels requested through ORTAC varied considerably now with faster, higher performance aircraft operating in and out of the islands the levels requested tend to be within a much smaller band. Combine that with an increase in traffic climbing out of Southampton through ORTAC and you have a much more complicated traffic situation through the same bottleneck as the GA traffic. Hence, again, more headings.
The other result of this situation means that much more co-ordination has to be effected with surrounding agencies which means that even if we don't sound that busy we may well be busy on the phone to other units and not, as one crew recently told me they thought, ordering pizza again!
Riverboat, if my memory serves me correctly I think that you have mentioned in the past that you find the service from Jersey more restrictive than it has been previously? I hope this goes some way to answering that question.
WW
Twenty years ago all GA traffic into Jersey or overflying the zone into Dinard or other French airfields was routed via Cap de la Hague and Flamanville and given zone entry clearance from there while only Guernsey and Alderney traffic were given entry dct from 50N ORTAC way. Unfortunately since the introduction of the French restricted areas outside of the zone all GA traffic is given entry clearance through 50N ORTAC. With all traffic routeing through the bottleneck between Alderney and 50N and only up to 3 thousand feet being available under R41 the options for separating traffic in Class A airspace are quite limited - hence an increased use of headings for GA traffic.
As far as commercial traffic goes, where as years ago the levels requested through ORTAC varied considerably now with faster, higher performance aircraft operating in and out of the islands the levels requested tend to be within a much smaller band. Combine that with an increase in traffic climbing out of Southampton through ORTAC and you have a much more complicated traffic situation through the same bottleneck as the GA traffic. Hence, again, more headings.
The other result of this situation means that much more co-ordination has to be effected with surrounding agencies which means that even if we don't sound that busy we may well be busy on the phone to other units and not, as one crew recently told me they thought, ordering pizza again!
Riverboat, if my memory serves me correctly I think that you have mentioned in the past that you find the service from Jersey more restrictive than it has been previously? I hope this goes some way to answering that question.
WW