NATS £45m Cost Savings - Suggestion Box
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: united kingdom
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Funny how many remember the Cr*p pink elephants though...
And while I remember, the only reason for the Infringer spotter is because the most serious infringer this year was not spotted by the ATCOs until after it had crossed the Heathrow climbout lane very close to a departure.
I am sure that you must have seen it on one of those Plasma screens that you don't look at.
And while I remember, the only reason for the Infringer spotter is because the most serious infringer this year was not spotted by the ATCOs until after it had crossed the Heathrow climbout lane very close to a departure.
I am sure that you must have seen it on one of those Plasma screens that you don't look at.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
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yep,
many people remember the pink elephants, purple camels and frogs jumping in trees.
Shame they can't remember the (sometimes) pertinent point that was trying to be made.
If there is a trend that is causing a problem, tell us. It doesn't need dressing up in strange coloured animals. ATCOs acually like to get messages straight without any bull. If HF/HR tried that tactic, then the actual message may be received more readily.
As for the infringer spotter - a complete CYA exercise by management on the back of one incident. It isn't even manned on a busy, sunny friday afternoon - a time when lots of GA get airborne
. It really is just being done in order for management to turn round to their bosses and say "look at what we are doing". It's quite telling that the watch supervisors think it's boll*cks.
Meanwhile we'll bring in procedures without checking the safety implication or the actual (not perceived) benefits. Even when the experts (the people doing the sectors) give valid arguments against the implementation.
All that people in this company seem to want to do nowadays is to be seen to be doing something. A case of trying to protect their job perhaps?
many people remember the pink elephants, purple camels and frogs jumping in trees.
Shame they can't remember the (sometimes) pertinent point that was trying to be made.
If there is a trend that is causing a problem, tell us. It doesn't need dressing up in strange coloured animals. ATCOs acually like to get messages straight without any bull. If HF/HR tried that tactic, then the actual message may be received more readily.
As for the infringer spotter - a complete CYA exercise by management on the back of one incident. It isn't even manned on a busy, sunny friday afternoon - a time when lots of GA get airborne
. It really is just being done in order for management to turn round to their bosses and say "look at what we are doing". It's quite telling that the watch supervisors think it's boll*cks.Meanwhile we'll bring in procedures without checking the safety implication or the actual (not perceived) benefits. Even when the experts (the people doing the sectors) give valid arguments against the implementation.
All that people in this company seem to want to do nowadays is to be seen to be doing something. A case of trying to protect their job perhaps?
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Zkdli
The infringer position IS a waste of time I'm afraid. It doesn't pick up primary contacts properly, which is what we are most in danger of missing. CAIT is a great bit of kit, but you don't need an extra pair of eyes for those magenta contacts, purely because it does its job so well and they are kind of hard to miss now!
What should have been done (if management were interested in doing it properly) was to split all the approach sectors and have somebody on each sector monitoring that particular piece of airspace rather than one person covering 5 airfields on a radar range of 50miles.
What we had instead was a compromise that benefits nobody and just creates more work.
The infringer position IS a waste of time I'm afraid. It doesn't pick up primary contacts properly, which is what we are most in danger of missing. CAIT is a great bit of kit, but you don't need an extra pair of eyes for those magenta contacts, purely because it does its job so well and they are kind of hard to miss now!
What should have been done (if management were interested in doing it properly) was to split all the approach sectors and have somebody on each sector monitoring that particular piece of airspace rather than one person covering 5 airfields on a radar range of 50miles.
What we had instead was a compromise that benefits nobody and just creates more work.
Last edited by mr.777; 2nd Jun 2009 at 07:13.
Join Date: May 2006
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Zkdli,
Whilst working over the Bank Holiday weekend it was comforting to note that whilst the infringer spotter was meant to be doing their stuff I was involved in two fairly significant infringements into the London Zone, neither of which were spotted by the spotter.
Money well spent
And while I remember, the only reason for the Infringer spotter is because the most serious infringer this year was not spotted by the ATCOs until after it had crossed the Heathrow climbout lane very close to a departure.
Money well spent
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: uk
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Genuine Question:
Are these "spotters",
ATCOs?
Do they hold a current validation?
What positions/sectors are they valid on?
Do they have direct access to the r/t?
Is it a CAA licensed position?
What are their responsibilities?
If the incident as previously mentioned occured went one step further, who is responsible for the outcome - the "spotter" or the validated ATCO working the position?
Interesting.
Are these "spotters",
ATCOs?
Do they hold a current validation?
What positions/sectors are they valid on?
Do they have direct access to the r/t?
Is it a CAA licensed position?
What are their responsibilities?
If the incident as previously mentioned occured went one step further, who is responsible for the outcome - the "spotter" or the validated ATCO working the position?
Interesting.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
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expedite-off
1. quite often trainees
2. not necessarily
3. none required
4. no - they have to walk very quickly to the relevant controller.
5. no
6. to look for infringers
7. the infringer, obviously!! (though the atco would be given a huge portion of blame
1. quite often trainees
2. not necessarily
3. none required
4. no - they have to walk very quickly to the relevant controller.
5. no
6. to look for infringers
7. the infringer, obviously!! (though the atco would be given a huge portion of blame
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Let's not bother to fix anything.
By not fixing any operational systems, unless we really have to, we could get rid of lots of engineers......Oh sorry we're doing that already.
Join Date: Nov 2008
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My mate up north says the ATSA's at Scottish have been cut back so far that sectors will have to close to run a safe service. Apparently they drag staff from the simulator to stop any delays. Trouble is they work Mon -Fri 0900-1700. What ever happened to safety 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland, ATCO
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That is correct! Its going on just about everyday at Scottish. These staff are not working 0900 - 1700. These staff from the simulator are working shifts in the OPS room without UHP! Ok it doesn't include nightshifts etc but its still varied shifts!
Join Date: Jan 2004
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These staff from the simulator are working shifts in the OPS room without UHP
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Things must be desperate if they can't afford o/t to man the ops room.
However, can nats afford NOT to man the ops room??
Still laughing at thought of either prestwick or swanwick closing at night though. A novel way to save money that - an idea that is so completely wrong, unsafe and unlicensable in a practical sense (cancel all night flying until those who might want to do it have all the validations for the whole country!!).
Here's a better idea - build wind turbines just off the end of the runways, we can use the jet efflux to make them go round, and use that energy to cut our electricity bills!!!
Or - single manning, but only for managerial positions!
Join Date: Apr 2001
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I [along with 20plus of my ATSA colleagues] retire/leave the company [deliberate lower case] at the end of January 2010 at MACC. So..... potentially Eight additional sectors will be transferred to PC.....with what "support" staff?????
Will Mr B be in charge then?
Will Mr B be in charge then?
Last edited by chiglet; 4th Jun 2009 at 19:46.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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ali bongo,
please dont take this the wrong way, its not meant as a jibe at you or those that do 'help out' in the ops room.Its all well and good saying they should man the ops room properly, but they are never going to do that whilst you and others are 'helping out', thereby solving the problem. its the same argument for those atco's doing aava's. the ops room is supposedly not undermanned, so why the need for aava's? thats because its far cheaper for the company to plug a short fall on a temporary basis, than to man the ops room to the max at all times. This is also my main gripe with mr barron's latest spout on pravdanet about perceived night shift inefficiencies. He would love to be able to tell us all with 2 days notice whether you will be nights or days, ( and i fully expect the union to cave on that one as well) because its a far more efficient use of manpower/womanpower. that , however would surely end up with the current watch system being thrown in the bin, along with peoples abilities to plan anything for days 5 and 6 of their cycle. The problem is we man the ops room at night, planning for the maximum amount of traffic, so that our customers can get their most efficient routings without flow restrictions, that we cant put on for oceanic traffic anyway. however in this , now, FOR PROFIT environment we live in, the beancounters see this as counter productive to the making of as much profit as they can , to ensure tea and bonuses all round. Sure they can suggest maybe losing 1 or 2 people off the nights or some other hairbrained scheme where swanwick work one night and scacc the other, or some other cr@p like that, but i for one do not want to be sat there on that night when all the sectors are open and i call for a planner and there isnt one. Air traffic control is a safety service, it should be run as such , with safety in mind, and not profit. its all well and good wanting to be lean and mean, but you may end up being the leanest, meanest person ever to stand before the judge. i guarantee you mr.b wont be standing next to you, he'll be laughing all the way to the bank.
rant over
please dont take this the wrong way, its not meant as a jibe at you or those that do 'help out' in the ops room.Its all well and good saying they should man the ops room properly, but they are never going to do that whilst you and others are 'helping out', thereby solving the problem. its the same argument for those atco's doing aava's. the ops room is supposedly not undermanned, so why the need for aava's? thats because its far cheaper for the company to plug a short fall on a temporary basis, than to man the ops room to the max at all times. This is also my main gripe with mr barron's latest spout on pravdanet about perceived night shift inefficiencies. He would love to be able to tell us all with 2 days notice whether you will be nights or days, ( and i fully expect the union to cave on that one as well) because its a far more efficient use of manpower/womanpower. that , however would surely end up with the current watch system being thrown in the bin, along with peoples abilities to plan anything for days 5 and 6 of their cycle. The problem is we man the ops room at night, planning for the maximum amount of traffic, so that our customers can get their most efficient routings without flow restrictions, that we cant put on for oceanic traffic anyway. however in this , now, FOR PROFIT environment we live in, the beancounters see this as counter productive to the making of as much profit as they can , to ensure tea and bonuses all round. Sure they can suggest maybe losing 1 or 2 people off the nights or some other hairbrained scheme where swanwick work one night and scacc the other, or some other cr@p like that, but i for one do not want to be sat there on that night when all the sectors are open and i call for a planner and there isnt one. Air traffic control is a safety service, it should be run as such , with safety in mind, and not profit. its all well and good wanting to be lean and mean, but you may end up being the leanest, meanest person ever to stand before the judge. i guarantee you mr.b wont be standing next to you, he'll be laughing all the way to the bank.
rant over
Join Date: Jul 2008
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ali bongo,
With all respect, there are those who are not getting UHP/ASAP. There were people complaining about just that this week. Maybe its worth checking with some others....
If I have got the wrong end of the stick then I apologie in advance.
With all respect, there are those who are not getting UHP/ASAP. There were people complaining about just that this week. Maybe its worth checking with some others....
If I have got the wrong end of the stick then I apologie in advance.
Staff can argue till they're blue in the face that cuts are going too far but no will take any notice until the customers start to suffer.
You think you're short staffed one day? Split positions as much as you can. Ask for MDIs to be applied as soon as there's bad weather or bunching.
You think the ops room is short staffed? Say no to overtime.
Emergency or level bust? Ask for a break afterwards.
Dual Valid? Stick to one sector per day don't move back and forward to help out a shortfall.
Lots of airborne holding? Don't tighten the spacing on approach.
Problems with new procedures, equipement or practices? MOR them so the CAA are aware.
Only getting minimal breaks? Make sure you get 30 minutes responsibility free (that means don't take a bleep).
Start your break when you leave the ops room not when the incoming controller writes the time on the sheet.
No staff to relieve you? close the sector, DO NOT work beyond your shift end time.
In short, just say NO.
In the past we've always done a bit extra, gone the extra mile for the good of the system and the benefit of our customers but Paul Barron has taken tens of millions out of our costs and the next guy will do the same.
Our customers want lower costs and at the moment they're getting that with no visible loss of service.
We can't keep providing a first class service for ryanair prices.
You think you're short staffed one day? Split positions as much as you can. Ask for MDIs to be applied as soon as there's bad weather or bunching.
You think the ops room is short staffed? Say no to overtime.
Emergency or level bust? Ask for a break afterwards.
Dual Valid? Stick to one sector per day don't move back and forward to help out a shortfall.
Lots of airborne holding? Don't tighten the spacing on approach.
Problems with new procedures, equipement or practices? MOR them so the CAA are aware.
Only getting minimal breaks? Make sure you get 30 minutes responsibility free (that means don't take a bleep).
Start your break when you leave the ops room not when the incoming controller writes the time on the sheet.
No staff to relieve you? close the sector, DO NOT work beyond your shift end time.
In short, just say NO.
In the past we've always done a bit extra, gone the extra mile for the good of the system and the benefit of our customers but Paul Barron has taken tens of millions out of our costs and the next guy will do the same.
Our customers want lower costs and at the moment they're getting that with no visible loss of service.
We can't keep providing a first class service for ryanair prices.
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Does the company pay for this registered office that it has at Brettenham House South in London? If so why? We have CTC, the supposed HQ for NERL and Heathrow House, the supposed HQ for NSL. Why do we need another office to be registered at? Wasn't the point of dumping Kingsway as the HQ to make CTC the new HQ?
I'm confused........thank God I'm on leave.
I'm confused........thank God I'm on leave.