Can a greeting create confusion?
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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Can a greeting create confusion?
Hi there,
Canada has two official languages: English and French. Air traffic control services are provided in both languages in the Montreal FIR which basically covers the province of Quebec and the national capital (Ottawa) region.
For 15 years, I have greeted pilots with "bonjour" or "bonsoir" even if the pilots were making initial contact in English.
I have just been told to stop
that practice because it could create confusion.
Am I a weirdo 
or are controllers in other countries also greeting pilots in their own language other than English. I'm pretty sure I did not invent the wheel...
I also wonder what pilots think about that.
I'd love to hear from controllers and pilots on this.
Until then, bonsoir!
Canada has two official languages: English and French. Air traffic control services are provided in both languages in the Montreal FIR which basically covers the province of Quebec and the national capital (Ottawa) region.
For 15 years, I have greeted pilots with "bonjour" or "bonsoir" even if the pilots were making initial contact in English.
I have just been told to stop
that practice because it could create confusion. Am I a weirdo or are controllers in other countries also greeting pilots in their own language other than English. I'm pretty sure I did not invent the wheel... I also wonder what pilots think about that.I'd love to hear from controllers and pilots on this.
Until then, bonsoir!
Ohcirrej
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The obvious ensuing discussion about "Aviation Languages" aside.......
I've heard an American carrier get confused with a frequency transfer. "Contact center on 118 decimal 0, see you" was read back as "Uhhh, Eighteen, zero three, uh eighteen three two, uhhh, say again the frequency.". Not being bi-lingual (yet), I don't know, does "bonsoir" or "bonjour" sound like a command instruction of number in French?
I've heard an American carrier get confused with a frequency transfer. "Contact center on 118 decimal 0, see you" was read back as "Uhhh, Eighteen, zero three, uh eighteen three two, uhhh, say again the frequency.". Not being bi-lingual (yet), I don't know, does "bonsoir" or "bonjour" sound like a command instruction of number in French?
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Even english greetings are confusing from time to time. Saying bye ore good bye when sending aircraft to Frankfurt Arrival on 120,8 sometimes causes 120,85 or 120,825 as a readback.
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as atc i always greet my pilots.
some of them don't respond
but the majority do.
i think this is not a big problem....
i see a problem when pilots or atc .. use "point" but they must use "decimal"
use " Eighteen" but they must use "one eight"
when they say just switching without repeating the freq .. and after 2 minutes they come back and say "please confirm the freq for XXXxxx"
some of them don't respond
but the majority do.i think this is not a big problem....
i see a problem when pilots or atc .. use "point" but they must use "decimal"
use " Eighteen" but they must use "one eight"
when they say just switching without repeating the freq .. and after 2 minutes they come back and say "please confirm the freq for XXXxxx"
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Crossing the boundary of standard phraseology into Courtesy in RT is... tolerated pretty much everywhere. How far can you go it is (as I understand in your case) sometimes defined by your sup/competence officer.
Lets say that courtesy in english it's the accepted "norm".
From here on...
In another bi-lingual country they mark the paperstrips of the french speaking pilots so they can use french with them and english to others. Greetings follow the same rule, french with the french speaking and english with the rest of the world. But even this is not that obvious in this globalised world when the pilot of a german company can have a noticeable french accent.
One of my colleagues was driving me nuts by greeting everybody in THEIR native language. When having a more "exotic" company I would hold my breath to see whether he "knows" the greeting in that particular language. No harm done, even amusing at times. For the record, he was "suggested"
to stick to english, so it did not happen only to you in this world.
On the other hand It is corny when pilots greet me using the language of another country by ignorance (I don't mean english here). It is one reason I agree with my colleague being told to stick to english.
Lets say that courtesy in english it's the accepted "norm".
From here on...
In another bi-lingual country they mark the paperstrips of the french speaking pilots so they can use french with them and english to others. Greetings follow the same rule, french with the french speaking and english with the rest of the world. But even this is not that obvious in this globalised world when the pilot of a german company can have a noticeable french accent.
One of my colleagues was driving me nuts by greeting everybody in THEIR native language. When having a more "exotic" company I would hold my breath to see whether he "knows" the greeting in that particular language. No harm done, even amusing at times. For the record, he was "suggested"
to stick to english, so it did not happen only to you in this world.
On the other hand It is corny when pilots greet me using the language of another country by ignorance (I don't mean english here). It is one reason I agree with my colleague being told to stick to english.
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We also use greetings,during the day I have max 1-2 acft not saying anything.We use at least english,but usually international greets.Older colleagues have huge database of foreign greetings :-).We have lot of fun usually when it is morning(after sun rise) and crews are saying goodevening :-).This happens also to me...as we don't have windows in control room :-).
Rado
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Language Timothy!
This one is close to my heart and has been the subject of discussion with my LCE as well as an ongoing source of amusement to my colleagues. I recognise that we should communicate in English and daily admire the proficiency of pilots for whom English might be a second or even a third language.
I view pilots as welcome guests in my country and am a frequent visitor to many of their countries. In a troubled world I hope I do a tiny bit to improve or maintain relationships wherever I go. In my job I do not feel that salutations and valedictions - when time permits - are strictly part of the ATC communication and do feel that it is nice to perform them in a pilot's native language. I only do this when I am not busy. I can do this in at least ten languages and regard it as an extension of the courtesy I would show when abroad of troubling to learn a couple of words of someones language.
I am aware of some pitfalls, in particular when saying goodbye to a German speaker I have to enunciate very clearly or use "auf wiederhoeren" as "tschuess" can be mistaken for "two" at the end of a frequency.
So, non-conformance notwithstanding, is there not a matter of judgement here?
As I recall - although I am not a legal expert - French, Spanish and Russian are official ICAO languages so I can not see the problem with the appropriate use of them outside the UK where the situational awareness of international visitors is not at risk.
In summary and except as caveatted above, I do not believe greetings and goodbyes are routinely mistaken for other elements of a transmission and for pilots of countries where courtesy is a part of the culture rather than a burden I hope it might even make them smile.
I view pilots as welcome guests in my country and am a frequent visitor to many of their countries. In a troubled world I hope I do a tiny bit to improve or maintain relationships wherever I go. In my job I do not feel that salutations and valedictions - when time permits - are strictly part of the ATC communication and do feel that it is nice to perform them in a pilot's native language. I only do this when I am not busy. I can do this in at least ten languages and regard it as an extension of the courtesy I would show when abroad of troubling to learn a couple of words of someones language.
I am aware of some pitfalls, in particular when saying goodbye to a German speaker I have to enunciate very clearly or use "auf wiederhoeren" as "tschuess" can be mistaken for "two" at the end of a frequency.
So, non-conformance notwithstanding, is there not a matter of judgement here?
As I recall - although I am not a legal expert - French, Spanish and Russian are official ICAO languages so I can not see the problem with the appropriate use of them outside the UK where the situational awareness of international visitors is not at risk.
In summary and except as caveatted above, I do not believe greetings and goodbyes are routinely mistaken for other elements of a transmission and for pilots of countries where courtesy is a part of the culture rather than a burden I hope it might even make them smile.
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hmm
If I were to use my language the greeting would be... Góðan dag!
And saying good bye would be something like... Vertu saell or bless!
I usually stick to English for most of them, Icelandic for the locals and German for Germans! Has worked fine so far, no trouble at all!
And saying good bye would be something like... Vertu saell or bless!
I usually stick to English for most of them, Icelandic for the locals and German for Germans! Has worked fine so far, no trouble at all!
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"In 35 odd years of ATCing I never ever recall a pilot mistaking my "Gooday, sir" for a frequency or anything else!"
the female pilots didn't object to being called sir?
what gets to me is when a pilot checks in, after a handoff from montreal centre, and "bonsoirs" or "bonjours" me.
the female pilots didn't object to being called sir?
what gets to me is when a pilot checks in, after a handoff from montreal centre, and "bonsoirs" or "bonjours" me.
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I agree with most of you guys - greetings should stay - they just show that we actually acknowledge that there's another human being at the other end of the mic...
Personally I use English with most of the pilots and if I'm not busy then I greet them on the languages that I speak (and of course they too). If I don't speak the given language, I rather use English.
It's just that I don't wanna get that embarassed as a few colleauges who said "hi" in for example Japanese and then stay very silent when the pilot encouraged by this asked something in his own language
Personally I use English with most of the pilots and if I'm not busy then I greet them on the languages that I speak (and of course they too
). If I don't speak the given language, I rather use English.It's just that I don't wanna get that embarassed as a few colleauges who said "hi" in for example Japanese and then stay very silent when the pilot encouraged by this asked something in his own language
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as "tschuess" can be mistaken for "two" at the end of a frequency.