UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours
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Contracted airport controllers in the private sector are given pay rises annually based on the airport operators contract with the supplying contractor. This is usually done in an advance with may I suggest with little influence from RPI or CPI.
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In 1980,
'Met', (Meteorology), was done by Meteorologists, and Air Traffic Control, (ATC), was done by Air Traffic Control Officers, Assistants and Engineers.
It worked well.
And not a 'Manager' in sight.
P.S.
Dentists do not routinely perform liver-transplants.
'Met', (Meteorology), was done by Meteorologists, and Air Traffic Control, (ATC), was done by Air Traffic Control Officers, Assistants and Engineers.
It worked well.
And not a 'Manager' in sight.
P.S.
Dentists do not routinely perform liver-transplants.
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To all of those in PCS, you should also be asking why your union group were the only one originally looking for a sectional settlement !
Perhaps this gave the management negotiating team the idea for their final cunning plan of 3 offers.
Perhaps this gave the management negotiating team the idea for their final cunning plan of 3 offers.
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Flybywyre, suggest you ask someone in the know, as I did, you may get a surprise.
It would appear PCS did have an agenda that included more than basic pay, although I do not know the details.
I am in no way saying they were wrong trying to protect their members from further savage cuts, the ATSAs where I work have certainly had the sh***y end of the stick for a considerable time now.
It would appear PCS did have an agenda that included more than basic pay, although I do not know the details.
I am in no way saying they were wrong trying to protect their members from further savage cuts, the ATSAs where I work have certainly had the sh***y end of the stick for a considerable time now.
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Unfortunately I am not in for a few weeks, otherwise I would go and see CR in his office and ask him directly.
Perhaps someone at Swanwick could clear this one up for us?
Get a definitive answer and post it on here
Perhaps someone at Swanwick could clear this one up for us?
Get a definitive answer and post it on here
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I don't want to patronise but you can't compare the duties outside of nats to those inside as most of the airports are far busier than non state airports.
We feel it is dangerous having a controller answer outside calls, undertake met obs etc whilst controlling. Also safety surveys etc are not failsafe and is not the solution to this that prospect thinks it is. There is always somebody stupid enough to sign things off for management.
We need atsa's, end of story.
We feel it is dangerous having a controller answer outside calls, undertake met obs etc whilst controlling. Also safety surveys etc are not failsafe and is not the solution to this that prospect thinks it is. There is always somebody stupid enough to sign things off for management.
We need atsa's, end of story.
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the rumbling
This is obviously a very emotive topic and feelings rightly run high.
The three Trade Unions have come up with three offers. That is the way it is. There is no need for one offer
. If any of the three Unions dont like their offer (even if its just because its less than the other Unions) then vote NO. Or look at the deal in its individuality. Its not divide and conquer. The workforce is already divided. Into three Trade Unions and on and on and on.
The Prospect Atco's branch has presented a deal which is RPI + .5% on basic pay. On your basic pay it is a pay rise VS RPI. The add ons in the second year, the UHP, OJTI LCE etc dont go up. However, if this really pisses you off do something. If OJTI now doesnt pay you enough, give it up. If LCE doesnt now pay you enough, three months notice today. But your basic pay will go up with this offer by RPI + 0.5 %.
NSL have the power with regards to MET. Quite rightly. If taking on MET isn't worth RPI + 0.5%, vote NO. Without MET and AAVA you can expect an offer of 2%.
NERL could pay a higher core offer, say 3 -3.5% because financially they are under a lot less pressure than many of the aiport contracts within NSL. However with AAVA and they are vital to projects, RPI + 0.5% was available.
I know this is a little Rant-like but I am living in the real world. So NATS pays dividends. So what. Thats not unusual. An RPI pay deal is tho! Very unusual. My other half has a 0% deal this year. The rest of the country is averaging between 2-3 %. NATS is doubling this but with strings. The strings this time round sit with NSL predominantly but in the future it will be with NERL.
NSL and NERL need to stick together on this, but do it with our eyes open.
The three Trade Unions have come up with three offers. That is the way it is. There is no need for one offer
. If any of the three Unions dont like their offer (even if its just because its less than the other Unions) then vote NO. Or look at the deal in its individuality. Its not divide and conquer. The workforce is already divided. Into three Trade Unions and on and on and on.The Prospect Atco's branch has presented a deal which is RPI + .5% on basic pay. On your basic pay it is a pay rise VS RPI. The add ons in the second year, the UHP, OJTI LCE etc dont go up. However, if this really pisses you off do something. If OJTI now doesnt pay you enough, give it up. If LCE doesnt now pay you enough, three months notice today. But your basic pay will go up with this offer by RPI + 0.5 %.
NSL have the power with regards to MET. Quite rightly. If taking on MET isn't worth RPI + 0.5%, vote NO. Without MET and AAVA you can expect an offer of 2%.
NERL could pay a higher core offer, say 3 -3.5% because financially they are under a lot less pressure than many of the aiport contracts within NSL. However with AAVA and they are vital to projects, RPI + 0.5% was available.
I know this is a little Rant-like but I am living in the real world. So NATS pays dividends. So what. Thats not unusual. An RPI pay deal is tho! Very unusual. My other half has a 0% deal this year. The rest of the country is averaging between 2-3 %. NATS is doubling this but with strings. The strings this time round sit with NSL predominantly but in the future it will be with NERL.
NSL and NERL need to stick together on this, but do it with our eyes open.
Last edited by Krait; 24th Apr 2011 at 14:54.
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RPI deals may be rare but do happen. Otherwise everyone would get poorer as time went by which wouldn't be sustainable.
Believe tube drivers just turned down a deal which would give them 0.25 % ABOVE RPI for next 4 years. Think they'd have to take a hit in the first year and so they don't like it but I'd swap it for our deal in a heartbeat. And deal included concessions from the company not the staff.
A business involving public transport the disruption of which would cause chaos, especially with the Olympics next year. Why does that sound familiar?
Believe tube drivers just turned down a deal which would give them 0.25 % ABOVE RPI for next 4 years. Think they'd have to take a hit in the first year and so they don't like it but I'd swap it for our deal in a heartbeat. And deal included concessions from the company not the staff.
A business involving public transport the disruption of which would cause chaos, especially with the Olympics next year. Why does that sound familiar?
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Krait,
you are not quite correct about what goes up in the second year.
UHP does not go up, the other 2 do.
OJTI payment is percentage-based on your basic pay. The LCE scale is a basic pay scale when it comes to pay increases and if you are active, then it is a percentage as an hourly rate.
If your basic pay goes up, then obviously anything that is a percentage of that pay i.e. OJTI hourly payment and quarterly payment, goes up as well!!!
you are not quite correct about what goes up in the second year.
The add ons in the second year, the UHP, OJTI LCE etc dont go up.
OJTI payment is percentage-based on your basic pay. The LCE scale is a basic pay scale when it comes to pay increases and if you are active, then it is a percentage as an hourly rate.
If your basic pay goes up, then obviously anything that is a percentage of that pay i.e. OJTI hourly payment and quarterly payment, goes up as well!!!
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So after the pay cuts we have suffered over the last 2 years what we are really talking about is an actual real terms rise of LESS THAN 0.5% on your whole pay over 2 years in return for taking on all those extra ATSA duties on top of our current tasks, and an AAVA deal signed in perpetuity at the same rate that hasn't changed since its introduction.
Anybody who doesn't see that as getting stiffed when the company is making big payouts to managers and shareholders is just kidding themselves.
Just consider this...At what point do you think your pay is going to recover from these repeated attacks? Or are you content to just watch it all disappear down the toilet?
Until we show management that we are deadly serious about this they will always keep screwing us forever more.
Make no mistake though, if we do make a stand this time we will need to show a strong resolve in order to acheive what we want, and that resolve must be carried forward year on year to avoid losing it all again afterwards.
In a successful, profitable company it is not unreasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation year on year without having to accept reductions in other terms & conditions.
Anybody who doesn't see that as getting stiffed when the company is making big payouts to managers and shareholders is just kidding themselves.
Just consider this...At what point do you think your pay is going to recover from these repeated attacks? Or are you content to just watch it all disappear down the toilet?
Until we show management that we are deadly serious about this they will always keep screwing us forever more.
Make no mistake though, if we do make a stand this time we will need to show a strong resolve in order to acheive what we want, and that resolve must be carried forward year on year to avoid losing it all again afterwards.
In a successful, profitable company it is not unreasonable to expect pay to keep pace with inflation year on year without having to accept reductions in other terms & conditions.
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Mad : No operational staff had a PAY CUT !
We just have not had a pay rise since January 2009 when we got 3%
Tax and National Insurance are taking a bigger chunk as of this month for higher rate tax payers, so your net pay will be less, but that is nothing to do with NATS.
We just have not had a pay rise since January 2009 when we got 3%
Tax and National Insurance are taking a bigger chunk as of this month for higher rate tax payers, so your net pay will be less, but that is nothing to do with NATS.
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an AAVA deal signed in perpetuity at the same rate that hasn't changed since its introduction
Frankly, even though I've asked the question, it doesn't matter a great deal to me since this is the least critical factor in the deal anyway.
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Mr Fat Controller, if pay doesn't keep pace with inflation year on year then in real terms that is a pay cut.
What was inflation when we got 3%?
What has inflation been in the 2 years since then?
I'm pretty sure that the communications would have at least mentioned any increase in the AAVA rate if there was going to be one.
What was inflation when we got 3%?
What has inflation been in the 2 years since then?
I'm pretty sure that the communications would have at least mentioned any increase in the AAVA rate if there was going to be one.
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For those that have forgotten, here are the pay rises that ATCOs have had in recent years since the change to January deals rather than April.
The previous August RPI is shown in brackets as this is the one used by NATS/Unions in their negotiations.
Jan 2002 2.2% on all, Oct 2002 2.0% on base salary only (2.1%)
Jan 2003 3.8% on all, Dec 2003 1.8% on base salary only (1.4%)
Jan 2004 3.4% plus half spine point (2.9%)
Jan 2005 3.8% plus half spine point (3.2%)
Jan 2006 2.8%, Apr 2006 one spine point (2.8%)
Jan 2007 3.4% plus 0.65% spine point (3.4%)
Jan 2008 4.1% (4.1%)
Jan 2009 3% (4.8%)
By the time we got the January 2009 rise, RPI had fallen to -0.5%
The data can be found here
National Statistics Online - Product
As for the new AAVA deal, looks like it will be at the current rate, limited to 12 every year with extras negotiated for large simulation/training requirements.
The previous August RPI is shown in brackets as this is the one used by NATS/Unions in their negotiations.
Jan 2002 2.2% on all, Oct 2002 2.0% on base salary only (2.1%)
Jan 2003 3.8% on all, Dec 2003 1.8% on base salary only (1.4%)
Jan 2004 3.4% plus half spine point (2.9%)
Jan 2005 3.8% plus half spine point (3.2%)
Jan 2006 2.8%, Apr 2006 one spine point (2.8%)
Jan 2007 3.4% plus 0.65% spine point (3.4%)
Jan 2008 4.1% (4.1%)
Jan 2009 3% (4.8%)
By the time we got the January 2009 rise, RPI had fallen to -0.5%
The data can be found here
National Statistics Online - Product
As for the new AAVA deal, looks like it will be at the current rate, limited to 12 every year with extras negotiated for large simulation/training requirements.
Last edited by The Fat Controller; 25th Apr 2011 at 09:33. Reason: grammar
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The interim AAVA deal rate remains as was. New rates will be in the new AAVA deal (if there is to be one!) however Prospect has often said that it is more interested in pensionable pay rather than throwing money into an overtime agreement that is voluntary.......
I have a genuine question for the NSL girls and guys - what do you think is going to happen if there is a no vote on the NSL ballot?
I would be interestered in your opinions, personally I can see only 4 options.....
1. Nats withdraws the whole offer.
2. Nats says original offer still stands for NERL employees.
3. Nats offers more money.
4. The residual tasks element is dropped.
I think we all know 3 is unlikely......as is 4.
What are the ramifications of 1 & 2....?
Discuss.
I have a genuine question for the NSL girls and guys - what do you think is going to happen if there is a no vote on the NSL ballot?
I would be interestered in your opinions, personally I can see only 4 options.....
1. Nats withdraws the whole offer.
2. Nats says original offer still stands for NERL employees.
3. Nats offers more money.
4. The residual tasks element is dropped.
I think we all know 3 is unlikely......as is 4.
What are the ramifications of 1 & 2....?
Discuss.
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Bobblehat... I can't help feeling you have a vested interest in seeing this deal accepted after a divisive & scaremongering post like that.
The way i see it is that the union has a clear mandate that no differential pay offer will be accepted, and so assuming a rejection of the offer by NSL staff, would not be in a position to recommend an offer to NERL staff alone.
The way i see it is that the union has a clear mandate that no differential pay offer will be accepted, and so assuming a rejection of the offer by NSL staff, would not be in a position to recommend an offer to NERL staff alone.
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Having had an unofficial mini-briefing from someone who knows the in and outs of the met issue, it would appear there are very limited circumstances under which met would be undertaken by ATCOs where they do not already do it.
Also, the task is likely to disappear in a couple of years time anyway when SAMOS is introduced, so taking a "bung" now may not be the worst thing to do.
As for the new AAVA agreement, do not hold you breath for any change in the rate-per-shift !
Also, the task is likely to disappear in a couple of years time anyway when SAMOS is introduced, so taking a "bung" now may not be the worst thing to do.
As for the new AAVA agreement, do not hold you breath for any change in the rate-per-shift !
Last edited by The Fat Controller; 27th Apr 2011 at 09:23. Reason: spelling
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I think "2. Nats says original offer still stands for NERL employees." is what will happen.....and as sure as eggs are eggs, NERL ATCO's will accept.
NERL ATCO