LHR - Northbound Departures
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LHR - Northbound Departures
Out of interest from the TMA boys & girls - a pilot asks -
When say pulled off the Woburn departure and turned on to northerly or north easterly headings when we're trying to get towards Trent, Scotland etc - what are you looking for before you can let us turn left and get back on track ?
Is it simply height to get over London inbounds, or distance in getting us further north to get some lateral seperation against inbounds ?
i.e. is it possible to say you'd prefer us to climb in this part of the tma or put the forward speed on instead ?
When say pulled off the Woburn departure and turned on to northerly or north easterly headings when we're trying to get towards Trent, Scotland etc - what are you looking for before you can let us turn left and get back on track ?
Is it simply height to get over London inbounds, or distance in getting us further north to get some lateral seperation against inbounds ?
i.e. is it possible to say you'd prefer us to climb in this part of the tma or put the forward speed on instead ?
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After reaching A060 on departure, there are so many conflictions in the way of LHR inbounds at 1000 above, and in/outbounds from Luton and Standstead etc that it takes a while to clear them. On the off chance tho sometimes when there is a break in the Lambourne inbounds, you can get higher climb sooner, but usually it takes a few miles on the northerly heading to clear all the mish-mash of traffic in the London TMAs
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I would think that height is normally more important than speed. We normally give a heading off BUR of something like 305 to jump the BNN stack straight from departure. If you are given BUR 015, or something similar and you are given climb, this will often be to 'jump' aircraft into BNN. If we want an expedite, we will ask for it.
If you fly a Heavy, we are unlikely to jump the stack and the most you can normally expect would be min stack (FL 70 or 80) underneath BNN.
I'm quite happy to be told ''good rate available'' when you check in.
If you fly a Heavy, we are unlikely to jump the stack and the most you can normally expect would be min stack (FL 70 or 80) underneath BNN.
I'm quite happy to be told ''good rate available'' when you check in.
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The headings are given for a variety of reasons as the Wobun (and Buzad) deps out of Heathrow conflict with a shed load of traffic. You've got the inbounds to Heathrow, Stansted, City, Luton and Northolt which you are trying to climb against for a start. Then of course you've got the outbounds from said airfields to contend with. The NW Deps controller also tries to attempt to put the outbounds the correct way round for the Midlands controller i.e. a/c routing via TNT to the west of those via POL. Also the NW controller is trying to position the outbounds in such a way as to give the Midlands controller a fighting chance of getting these a/c through the Brum, Cov and E.Mids inbounds.
As always better explained when at the coal face so to speak and the south coast is actually quite nice.
As always better explained when at the coal face so to speak and the south coast is actually quite nice.
Last edited by coracle; 19th Jun 2008 at 22:25.
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Agree with the above. There is also the need to get the LL departures to the east of the airway to allow the Midlands controller to descend the Birmingham and Coventry inbounds to the west of the airway towards DTY.
If an aircraft is left on the WOBUN SID in a busy/complex traffic situation, the options for climbing, positioning and getting it out of the way are drastically reduced as it ends up stuck underneath SS/GW/LC/KB inbounds and then after that the BB/BE/NX inbounds. Positioning the WOBUNs out to the east gives the controller much more space to get you climbing up and out of the road of everyone else.
As coracle says, it's much better explained if you're sitting there watching us work. Visits from pilots are very welcome, not only so they can see what we do but for us to fire 101 questions at them!
If an aircraft is left on the WOBUN SID in a busy/complex traffic situation, the options for climbing, positioning and getting it out of the way are drastically reduced as it ends up stuck underneath SS/GW/LC/KB inbounds and then after that the BB/BE/NX inbounds. Positioning the WOBUNs out to the east gives the controller much more space to get you climbing up and out of the road of everyone else.
As coracle says, it's much better explained if you're sitting there watching us work. Visits from pilots are very welcome, not only so they can see what we do but for us to fire 101 questions at them!
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lhr woburn deps...
Thanks very much chaps for all the detail - that helps to give the big picture nicely. Will pop down to the south coast to visit and buy you an ice cream one day !
cheers.
cheers.
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But then that puts you into conflict with the Luton Downwind traffic which you are trying to get to 5000ft at a sensible place, not to mention that heading putting you directly underneath the BNN hold restricting your climb. Also puts you directly in conflict with Luton OLNEY deps which may have to be positioned to the East of you depending on where the LL traffic is going. Not to mention 020 off BUR means the cross is later for City and Stansted traffic again restricting your climb. Basically by going 020 off BUR, it will restrict the flexability for NW deps which is required to make the sector work.
