More highly skilled ATCOs
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I love this... It's a vast expanse of desert dotted with the occasional oasis.
The oasis being the posts of all who are completely and utterly confused!!!
And possibly mildly frustrated!!!
Vercingetorix...
<<Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot
Order shall return.>>
This is my new motto!!!
The oasis being the posts of all who are completely and utterly confused!!!
And possibly mildly frustrated!!!Vercingetorix...
<<Chaos reigns within.
Reflect, repent, and reboot
Order shall return.>>
This is my new motto!!!
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after that we put an imagined flight from very south of Europe to USA
. Like maybe try it with all the airplanes direct...But, taking the discussion slightly more seriously than it perhaps deserves, is the problem really the number of ATCOs? Are direct routes limited by ATCO workload (and by inference number of ATCOs) or by airspace. Suppose all the flight paths were calculated by some big computer, across all centers in Europe (for example). Given the same separation minima (5/1000'), how much better would it be able to do? Or are there just so many flight levels available?
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These are good and valid points all.
There is at least one "ATC-system project" that took at least
10 years to be completed, that I know of. There are some other projects
that never got to the completion phase.
And who knows every line of the programming code for sure?
Aviation is a special "art" because it needs so much back-up systems.
Almost all the systems are at least backed up with a secondary system
sometimes with a tertiary system. And so on.
It is quite wonderful how easy it is to increase the safety (i.e. "redundancy")
with adequately trained, highly qualified, personnel.
If it happens one day, let's say, in fifteen years that the computers took
some tasks from humans to "ease the strain", then there most likely will
be needed human interventions and "human touch" to control and
monitor those very systems. And the men and women in the ATC
are the ultimate fail safe network. When adequately trained and given the
chance for high quality rest etc.
There is at least one "ATC-system project" that took at least
10 years to be completed, that I know of. There are some other projects
that never got to the completion phase.
And who knows every line of the programming code for sure?
Aviation is a special "art" because it needs so much back-up systems.
Almost all the systems are at least backed up with a secondary system
sometimes with a tertiary system. And so on.
It is quite wonderful how easy it is to increase the safety (i.e. "redundancy")
with adequately trained, highly qualified, personnel.
If it happens one day, let's say, in fifteen years that the computers took
some tasks from humans to "ease the strain", then there most likely will
be needed human interventions and "human touch" to control and
monitor those very systems. And the men and women in the ATC
are the ultimate fail safe network. When adequately trained and given the
chance for high quality rest etc.
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There seem to be ony two people on here who understand each other - Slo Moe and Singapurcanac. I gave up 2 pages back! On another thread the moderator accused someone of using too much bandwidth. He ought to come here.
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There seem to be ony two people on here who understand each other - Slo Moe and Singapurcanac. I gave up 2 pages back! On another thread the moderator accused someone of using too much bandwidth. He ought to come here.
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SINGAPURCANAC, Slo Moe
Skills in a given discipline, Area or Approach differentiate the novice from the expert. A commonly studied domain is chess playing. It is particularly suitable since it lends itself to representation in terms of problem space theory, in which the initial board / Aircraft configuration and the final position of the King / A/C sequence, constitute the states, while the moves appeared as transition operators. Masters took lesser time than novices to react to a situation and produced better moves. This is largely because chess masters / experienced ATCO’s remember board configurations, A/C positions and good moves associated with them. They can chunk the board configuration in order to hold it in short-term memory. Thus expeditious flow rates are achieved .
It's all quite obvious really.
Skills in a given discipline, Area or Approach differentiate the novice from the expert. A commonly studied domain is chess playing. It is particularly suitable since it lends itself to representation in terms of problem space theory, in which the initial board / Aircraft configuration and the final position of the King / A/C sequence, constitute the states, while the moves appeared as transition operators. Masters took lesser time than novices to react to a situation and produced better moves. This is largely because chess masters / experienced ATCO’s remember board configurations, A/C positions and good moves associated with them. They can chunk the board configuration in order to hold it in short-term memory. Thus expeditious flow rates are achieved .
It's all quite obvious really.
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@ airac,
I didn't say a word,about issue that you wrote. it is so obvious ,really!
@ Verci,
You didn't give any evidence against my thesis. and Sloe Moe is not on my track,regarding shotage of Atcos. It is so obvious,really.
this forum is open for different opinion , and at least it is not correct to say that someone spending virtual space for nothing. My post are not in that direction.It is rather one view to current problem and short term future issues.
if you read carrefully, rather than to writte against.
Cheers,
I didn't say a word,about issue that you wrote. it is so obvious ,really!
@ Verci,
You didn't give any evidence against my thesis. and Sloe Moe is not on my track,regarding shotage of Atcos. It is so obvious,really.
this forum is open for different opinion , and at least it is not correct to say that someone spending virtual space for nothing. My post are not in that direction.It is rather one view to current problem and short term future issues.
if you read carrefully, rather than to writte against.
Cheers,
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the truth is!!!!
SINGAPURCANAC, Slo Moe
Look you two this thread is so wide of the mark it is unreal.
My initial post was I admit a Pi55 take, but you bit .
The second, well quite honestly you both deserve.
All I did was plagiarise from other articles and insert words /phrases/ and acronyms,
To imply a particular relevance to your original post
http://www.stthomasu.ca/publications...00/malmoor.htm
I think was seventh paragraph down and,
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/classes/cs6...p/process.html
Well, read the whole paper if you like.
My point being, you can try to analyse ATC , all you like but
Bull sh1t Baffles brains every time.
Sorry
Look you two this thread is so wide of the mark it is unreal.
My initial post was I admit a Pi55 take, but you bit .
The second, well quite honestly you both deserve.
All I did was plagiarise from other articles and insert words /phrases/ and acronyms,
To imply a particular relevance to your original post
http://www.stthomasu.ca/publications...00/malmoor.htm
I think was seventh paragraph down and,
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/classes/cs6...p/process.html
Well, read the whole paper if you like.
My point being, you can try to analyse ATC , all you like but
Bull sh1t Baffles brains every time.
Sorry
Last edited by airac; 4th Jun 2008 at 07:36.
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Sorry, been a bit busy lately. Stockholm, Rome, Finland several places.
You'd really need a map to see where true men work...
I have experience for only a bit over 6 years in ACC, so
I agree with at least on the previous point about the fact
that experience is good in ACC and in TWR. I can not say anything
about radar APP, not been working there. I only suppose that
experience is good also in the radar APP.
BTW.
There is evidence that many of the incidents happen
during the OJT. Quite obvious that too.
Simulators help that point too.
Quite obvious point that one too.
My procedural APP experience is from 10 yrs ago.
My procedural/radar ACC experience ended in 2007.
My radar ACC experience (With Eurocat 2000) ended at 2006.
New ideas are quite OK. I'd rather discuss than spend
my time scratching&patching.
We aren't the knights of NIH, are we?
You'd really need a map to see where true men work...
I have experience for only a bit over 6 years in ACC, so
I agree with at least on the previous point about the fact
that experience is good in ACC and in TWR. I can not say anything
about radar APP, not been working there. I only suppose that
experience is good also in the radar APP.
BTW.
There is evidence that many of the incidents happen
during the OJT. Quite obvious that too.
Simulators help that point too.
Quite obvious point that one too.
My procedural APP experience is from 10 yrs ago.
My procedural/radar ACC experience ended in 2007.
My radar ACC experience (With Eurocat 2000) ended at 2006.
New ideas are quite OK. I'd rather discuss than spend
my time scratching&patching.
We aren't the knights of NIH, are we?
Last edited by Slo Moe; 17th Jun 2008 at 05:10. Reason: the
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Wow.You do have the eye for the colours. (Tutti colori.)
There is an ATC supervisor in Finland who told this following story.
They were building a fireplace inside their summer
cottage that is situated in the beautiful archipelago that rests in the lap of the
clean and safe and vividly living sea in the South-Western (SW) part of Finland.
(The very archipelago is The Largest and The Most Unique Archipelago
in the world and it is in Finland.
I happen to know; I used to work there in the Coast Guard of Finland as a
cook for one beautiful summer filled with vivid and colourful memories...).
The bricklaying craftsmanship professional was a very sharp guy,
who did not need any tools to measure his work.
So this supervisor from Finland asked the bricklayer:
"Do you only use your eyes to measure the things you do?"
The answer of the bricklaying professional was:
"The eyes are the best tool for seeing..."
BTW.
Ferrari. Italia. Kimi Räikkönen. Finland.
There is an ATC supervisor in Finland who told this following story.
They were building a fireplace inside their summer
cottage that is situated in the beautiful archipelago that rests in the lap of the
clean and safe and vividly living sea in the South-Western (SW) part of Finland.
(The very archipelago is The Largest and The Most Unique Archipelago
in the world and it is in Finland.
I happen to know; I used to work there in the Coast Guard of Finland as a
cook for one beautiful summer filled with vivid and colourful memories...).
The bricklaying craftsmanship professional was a very sharp guy,
who did not need any tools to measure his work.
So this supervisor from Finland asked the bricklayer:
"Do you only use your eyes to measure the things you do?"
The answer of the bricklaying professional was:
"The eyes are the best tool for seeing..."
BTW.
Ferrari. Italia. Kimi Räikkönen. Finland.
Last edited by Slo Moe; 17th Jun 2008 at 07:49. Reason: vividly,s->S,w->W,(SW)
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These are some stories that left me speechless
during my career and my training.
A retired supervisor, that I highly respect told this:
He was a driving instructor prior to entering the ATC.
When they were educated to be driving instructors a
part of the training was to visit the morgue. And the
message was "This is what you will learn to teach
your students to avoid."
And another story by a respected air accident investigator.
He told us novices on the ATCO basic course that
the aviation law and the aviation rules and
regulations were written with the blood of pilots.
during my career and my training.
A retired supervisor, that I highly respect told this:
He was a driving instructor prior to entering the ATC.
When they were educated to be driving instructors a
part of the training was to visit the morgue. And the
message was "This is what you will learn to teach
your students to avoid."
And another story by a respected air accident investigator.
He told us novices on the ATCO basic course that
the aviation law and the aviation rules and
regulations were written with the blood of pilots.
Thread Starter
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What can be done, if there would not be more ATCO:s?
Its Back Against the Wall, Airline Industry Looks to Come Clean
Boeing Throws its Weight Behind Algae
Clean(er), Quiet(er) Landings Coming To An Airport Near You
Its Back Against the Wall, Airline Industry Looks to Come Clean
Boeing Throws its Weight Behind Algae
Clean(er), Quiet(er) Landings Coming To An Airport Near You
Last edited by Slo Moe; 18th Jun 2008 at 20:58.
