YYZ ATCOs PLZ...?
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YYZ ATCOs PLZ...?
Hello,
Was in Toronto airport three days ago where heavy fog prevailed throughout the morning hours.
Got the assignment to taxi form deice pad to 06L, then close to twy M, got the word from ground to taxi to rwy 05, as the CAT III appch needed is now to be used with rwy 06 instead of 05 as was used earlier.
A few questions about that and canadian operations in general, to the humble (non understaning) american pilot:
1) What's all this about CAT III now needs a diff rwy?? What's the difference, why not continue using the same rwy you have up until that point as moving all the tfc to the other side of the airport during low vis ops seems like a massy thing to do?...
2) Why do Canadian airports specify on ATIS the level of precision of the approach (i.e RUNWAY 05 CATEGORY III ILS APPROACH...) what diff, does it make to you guys which CAT will an airplane take an ILS to...?
3) The biggest thing I couldn't understand is why in YYZ, low vis ops, turn the airport into a one rwy for landing, one rwy for takeoff and render one runway useless??? Why not use all three for everything as you would on a normal day... Please elaborate.
A couple other questions not really related to the low vis ops but to YYZ in general:
1) Why do you not publish twr/grd freqs depicting which sector controls what side of the field...? Why is the Canadian method based on GRD telling me which TWR freq to call and vice versa? (same with twr telling me which of the two dep freqs to use...? why not part of PDC/Clearance?)
2) The last and final question. Lester 7 depicts initial altitude of 5000 ft. Cannot remember a single time I took off without being reassigned 3000 on departure by tower before takeoff... please explain why? why not revise SID?
All in all, great job you guys did on that morning. Very calm and cheerful attitude during the whole time, great job on getting us all out of there safely and quickly.
Thanks!
-downwindabeam
Was in Toronto airport three days ago where heavy fog prevailed throughout the morning hours.
Got the assignment to taxi form deice pad to 06L, then close to twy M, got the word from ground to taxi to rwy 05, as the CAT III appch needed is now to be used with rwy 06 instead of 05 as was used earlier.
A few questions about that and canadian operations in general, to the humble (non understaning) american pilot:
1) What's all this about CAT III now needs a diff rwy?? What's the difference, why not continue using the same rwy you have up until that point as moving all the tfc to the other side of the airport during low vis ops seems like a massy thing to do?...
2) Why do Canadian airports specify on ATIS the level of precision of the approach (i.e RUNWAY 05 CATEGORY III ILS APPROACH...) what diff, does it make to you guys which CAT will an airplane take an ILS to...?
3) The biggest thing I couldn't understand is why in YYZ, low vis ops, turn the airport into a one rwy for landing, one rwy for takeoff and render one runway useless??? Why not use all three for everything as you would on a normal day... Please elaborate.
A couple other questions not really related to the low vis ops but to YYZ in general:
1) Why do you not publish twr/grd freqs depicting which sector controls what side of the field...? Why is the Canadian method based on GRD telling me which TWR freq to call and vice versa? (same with twr telling me which of the two dep freqs to use...? why not part of PDC/Clearance?)
2) The last and final question. Lester 7 depicts initial altitude of 5000 ft. Cannot remember a single time I took off without being reassigned 3000 on departure by tower before takeoff... please explain why? why not revise SID?
All in all, great job you guys did on that morning. Very calm and cheerful attitude during the whole time, great job on getting us all out of there safely and quickly.
Thanks!
-downwindabeam
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I wasn't working that day but I'll try and answer.
Why you were switched? I don't know, maybe a lighting issue or ILS unserviceability.
We land on one and depart on one in low viz because that has a higher capacity than landing and departing on both due to spacing requirements on approach in low viz. Arrival to arrival in Cat3 is about 8 miles in trail. Put a departure in that space and it needs to be 15 miles. Departures can go in sequence without waiting for arrivals if they have their own runway. So even if you landed and departed on 2 runways the arrival rate would only be about 20-24/hour with a similar departure rate. Land on 1 runway at 8 miles in trail and arrival rate is still about 20-24/hour. Departure rate is over 40/hour on dedicated departure runway even in Cat3. 06R/24L is not useable in these conditions.
Tower frequency change signs were considered but for some reason not adopted. There are a lot of confliction points on the way to all the runways except 05 and so their advantage was deemed to be negligible.
95% of the time Departure will be 128.8. 127.57 will only be used from 05/23 at busy times or occasionaly when departing from 06L/24R and going north or west.
Lester 7 and 3000'. What type do you fly? Do you get turned by tower? Do you depart from a runway different to clearance initially given due direction of flight? If you are departing at the same time as someone from the other runway who is departing from the "wrong" runway then you too get 3000'. Departure will then sort out the crossover.
Thanks for the positive comments.
DC
Why you were switched? I don't know, maybe a lighting issue or ILS unserviceability.
We land on one and depart on one in low viz because that has a higher capacity than landing and departing on both due to spacing requirements on approach in low viz. Arrival to arrival in Cat3 is about 8 miles in trail. Put a departure in that space and it needs to be 15 miles. Departures can go in sequence without waiting for arrivals if they have their own runway. So even if you landed and departed on 2 runways the arrival rate would only be about 20-24/hour with a similar departure rate. Land on 1 runway at 8 miles in trail and arrival rate is still about 20-24/hour. Departure rate is over 40/hour on dedicated departure runway even in Cat3. 06R/24L is not useable in these conditions.
Tower frequency change signs were considered but for some reason not adopted. There are a lot of confliction points on the way to all the runways except 05 and so their advantage was deemed to be negligible.
95% of the time Departure will be 128.8. 127.57 will only be used from 05/23 at busy times or occasionaly when departing from 06L/24R and going north or west.
Lester 7 and 3000'. What type do you fly? Do you get turned by tower? Do you depart from a runway different to clearance initially given due direction of flight? If you are departing at the same time as someone from the other runway who is departing from the "wrong" runway then you too get 3000'. Departure will then sort out the crossover.
Thanks for the positive comments.
DC
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Hi Cossack
Recent ex Heathrow/Gatwick ATC. Genuine question, not a willy waving comp.
What is your latest DME range to issue landing clearance in low vis? At Heathrow and Gatwick, it is 2 miles (any preceding landing must have passed the CAT 3 bar, or departure must have passed overhead the localiser) with the option of continuing to 1nm if certain conditions apply.
As I remember, we would commonly do about 24-28 total in low vis off Gatwick's single runway; 10nm between arrivals, 1 departure in the gap. 15nm seems large (ish) to me, we'd want to get two away in that but perhaps there is a specific reason for that? (X2 would be up to about 56.)
At Heathrow (twin parallels, segregated) the normal low vis spacing is 6nm, giving about 26 arrivals and also about 40 departures p/h; 66 total. Still a clear advantage for segregated ops. but perhaps not so much as with you.
You do "crossover" on departure?? Does the track structure spread well immediately after departure to give climb and vectoring space?
.4
Recent ex Heathrow/Gatwick ATC. Genuine question, not a willy waving comp.
What is your latest DME range to issue landing clearance in low vis? At Heathrow and Gatwick, it is 2 miles (any preceding landing must have passed the CAT 3 bar, or departure must have passed overhead the localiser) with the option of continuing to 1nm if certain conditions apply.
As I remember, we would commonly do about 24-28 total in low vis off Gatwick's single runway; 10nm between arrivals, 1 departure in the gap. 15nm seems large (ish) to me, we'd want to get two away in that but perhaps there is a specific reason for that? (X2 would be up to about 56.)
At Heathrow (twin parallels, segregated) the normal low vis spacing is 6nm, giving about 26 arrivals and also about 40 departures p/h; 66 total. Still a clear advantage for segregated ops. but perhaps not so much as with you.
You do "crossover" on departure?? Does the track structure spread well immediately after departure to give climb and vectoring space?
.4
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Hi .4,
I'm familiar with the UK rules (ex-MAN) and the rules are different here. The departure must be past the localiser before the arrival reaches the FAF (4d-ish) hence the larger spacing requirement. Its a Transport Canada rule and we tried to get it reduced citing the UK as a precedent but were unsuccessful.
Low viz ops are rare here and its only recently that we've got the second Cat3 arrival runway. The Cat3 holds are a long, long way back too which makes dual Cat3 ops very slow. Also ground becomes a nightmare since we do the crossovers on the ground. Departures from the southeast end of the airport departing to the north or west, will need to taxy to 05 which is over 4 miles, in low viz!!! Not recommended. Land one depart one means one departure line and one arrival line. Much easier.
Normally departures are issued their runway based on direction of flight so there are no crossovers. We do permit non-conforming departures on an opportunity basis. Side by side departures are stopped at 3000 and Departure decides how to do the crossover. Jet Sids are basically all straight ahead (10 degree divergence since our runways are 2 miles apart) and we have to provide departure 3 miles in trail for similar types. We turn all props.
DC
I'm familiar with the UK rules (ex-MAN) and the rules are different here. The departure must be past the localiser before the arrival reaches the FAF (4d-ish) hence the larger spacing requirement. Its a Transport Canada rule and we tried to get it reduced citing the UK as a precedent but were unsuccessful.
Low viz ops are rare here and its only recently that we've got the second Cat3 arrival runway. The Cat3 holds are a long, long way back too which makes dual Cat3 ops very slow. Also ground becomes a nightmare since we do the crossovers on the ground. Departures from the southeast end of the airport departing to the north or west, will need to taxy to 05 which is over 4 miles, in low viz!!! Not recommended. Land one depart one means one departure line and one arrival line. Much easier.
Normally departures are issued their runway based on direction of flight so there are no crossovers. We do permit non-conforming departures on an opportunity basis. Side by side departures are stopped at 3000 and Departure decides how to do the crossover. Jet Sids are basically all straight ahead (10 degree divergence since our runways are 2 miles apart) and we have to provide departure 3 miles in trail for similar types. We turn all props.
DC
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Ho Cossack
Interesting. NATS would not entertain crossover on departure until traffic is stable and we haven't got the airspace available to achieve that; nor would the regulator here approve it.
Strangely, you have more stringent limits in low vis and that is seriously impacting your low vis arrival capacity. Did they give any reason for refusing you on the basis of our experience? We are ICAO compliant, at least as far as I am aware, and knowing our lot there is no way they would approve anything that isn't.
Must make low vis rather like watching paint dry!
.4
Interesting. NATS would not entertain crossover on departure until traffic is stable and we haven't got the airspace available to achieve that; nor would the regulator here approve it.
Strangely, you have more stringent limits in low vis and that is seriously impacting your low vis arrival capacity. Did they give any reason for refusing you on the basis of our experience? We are ICAO compliant, at least as far as I am aware, and knowing our lot there is no way they would approve anything that isn't.
Must make low vis rather like watching paint dry!
.4
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What's your definition of "stable"? Our departures are independent and diverging so nothing should go wrong. Departure climbs one above the other and crosses it over. No real drama and you'd be surprised at how little space you need to do it. We don't have the numerous pilot navigated sids like in the UK. All jets from the same runway fly the same sid, in trail spaced by the tower and vectored on course by departure.
Like I said earlier, Cat3 is rare here, maybe less than 20 hours/year so not many airports have developed Cat3 infrastructure and not many carriers are Cat3 capable. Cat 2 is more common and spacing requirements are reduced for that and capacity is better.
I wasn't involved in the request but the guy who was seemed surprised that there was so much of a difference in criteria and that TC wouldn't entertain any reduction. Maybe because of the rarity of the event, TC are reluctant to make a decision.
Or Cat 3 runways are 05 ad 06L and usually in low vis the wind is from the south! Makes for interesting times in tower when in mixed mode: ground speed 200kts over the FAF
Segregated operations are not only more capacity friendly, they make for a much easier time for tower and ground.
DC
Like I said earlier, Cat3 is rare here, maybe less than 20 hours/year so not many airports have developed Cat3 infrastructure and not many carriers are Cat3 capable. Cat 2 is more common and spacing requirements are reduced for that and capacity is better.
I wasn't involved in the request but the guy who was seemed surprised that there was so much of a difference in criteria and that TC wouldn't entertain any reduction. Maybe because of the rarity of the event, TC are reluctant to make a decision.
Or Cat 3 runways are 05 ad 06L and usually in low vis the wind is from the south! Makes for interesting times in tower when in mixed mode: ground speed 200kts over the FAF
Segregated operations are not only more capacity friendly, they make for a much easier time for tower and ground.DC
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Thank you so much for clearing this cossack!
As for your question, I'm a CRJ departing to BIGBE INTSC...
Almost always wether you guys use 05 or 23, prior to rcving t/o clrnc we get a 3000 restriction.
Got another question since we're on topic here...
How is the landing runway determined... for instance, coming on the ROKTO2 arrvl with 23 and 24L in use, we always get assigned 24L and sometimes when there's room we later get assigned 23 as it is closer to our gate...
why 24L?....
What is the in trail under low vis for arrival to departure..? I know you've answered it already while talking to the other UK ATCO but I didn't understand it.... you said something about ACF cross the localiser the arrival has to be outside of FAF.... does that mean roughly 6 NM?...
As for your question, I'm a CRJ departing to BIGBE INTSC...
Almost always wether you guys use 05 or 23, prior to rcving t/o clrnc we get a 3000 restriction.
Got another question since we're on topic here...
How is the landing runway determined... for instance, coming on the ROKTO2 arrvl with 23 and 24L in use, we always get assigned 24L and sometimes when there's room we later get assigned 23 as it is closer to our gate...
why 24L?....
What is the in trail under low vis for arrival to departure..? I know you've answered it already while talking to the other UK ATCO but I didn't understand it.... you said something about ACF cross the localiser the arrival has to be outside of FAF.... does that mean roughly 6 NM?...
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Hi downwindabeam,
CRJs are one of the aircraft types we are allowed to turn off the Sid to increase throughput. So off 23 you get 290 to 3000 and off 05 you get 360 to 3000. If there's another V36 in front of you we can't turn you inside as Departure must provide the enroute with intrail spacing of up to 10 miles same airway. We try and turn as many of the eligible types we can. The list is expanding and includes all CRJs, ERJ135/145/175, J328 and quiet executive jets. I guess you've been lucky and not been following someone same airway!
Normally arrivals from the south and west are assigned the south arrival runway (either 24L or R depending on the operation) and the traffic from the north and east gets the north runway. Occasionally there is a need to balance the arrivals and a late switch maybe necessary. Proximity to the gate does not influence the arrival controllers choice of runway. You can ask, but don't be suprised if you get a refusal. Most of the crossing over of traffic is done on the ground, thats why it can seem like a mess at times. Traffic from the south of the airport departs from the north runway and arriving traffic lands on the north runway to park at the south and vice versa.
In Cat3 the departure must be airborne past the upwind end of the runway before the next arrival reaches the FAF. This means about 15 miles between the arrivals. In the UK the rules are different and allow much closer spacing in Cat3. Normal spacing in mixed mode at YYZ would be 4 miles at touchdown with a departure going in between.
DC
CRJs are one of the aircraft types we are allowed to turn off the Sid to increase throughput. So off 23 you get 290 to 3000 and off 05 you get 360 to 3000. If there's another V36 in front of you we can't turn you inside as Departure must provide the enroute with intrail spacing of up to 10 miles same airway. We try and turn as many of the eligible types we can. The list is expanding and includes all CRJs, ERJ135/145/175, J328 and quiet executive jets. I guess you've been lucky and not been following someone same airway!
Normally arrivals from the south and west are assigned the south arrival runway (either 24L or R depending on the operation) and the traffic from the north and east gets the north runway. Occasionally there is a need to balance the arrivals and a late switch maybe necessary. Proximity to the gate does not influence the arrival controllers choice of runway. You can ask, but don't be suprised if you get a refusal. Most of the crossing over of traffic is done on the ground, thats why it can seem like a mess at times. Traffic from the south of the airport departs from the north runway and arriving traffic lands on the north runway to park at the south and vice versa.
In Cat3 the departure must be airborne past the upwind end of the runway before the next arrival reaches the FAF. This means about 15 miles between the arrivals. In the UK the rules are different and allow much closer spacing in Cat3. Normal spacing in mixed mode at YYZ would be 4 miles at touchdown with a departure going in between.
DC
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How is the landing runway determined... for instance, coming on the ROKTO2 arrvl with 23 and 24L in use, we always get assigned 24L and sometimes when there's room we later get assigned 23 as it is closer to our gate
Dual means arriving and departing on two runways. either 23-24R or 05-06L. Arrival spacing should be 5nm or wake (ie light behind a heavy). This allows tower to get off a departure in the space.
When you are coming in on the Rokto 2 and get assigned 24L it means we are running a triple operation. Basically this means we will land and depart 23 as in the dual. Tower will have only departures off 24R. We will land only on 24L with minimum spacing. This allows for the highest arrival rate into YYZ.
The terminal are supposed to favour the arrival runway that can accept the higher rate ie 24L or 06R. I believe the tower has to provide an extra position to triple so it is a bit of a waste of manpower if you don't load up that runway. However most controllers are aware of who parks where on the airfield and IF we can accomodate we will switch aircraft over....OR if there are too many aircraft coming in from Linng...the guys from the West are the easiest to move over to 23. It dosen't always make it more expeditious for the tower in ground control.......quite often a terminal 1 guy will end up on 23...but it is either that or a 35 mile final on 24L.
As Cossack said....ask in advance your preference. Personally I am always looking out for NWA or USA or Continental from the west as a switch to 23 always helps your ground taxi. If we turn you down....probably means you will get in quicker on 24L.
