Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Ground & Other Ops Forums > ATC Issues
Reload this Page >

Aircraft operating overhead outside a/d opening hours

ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

Aircraft operating overhead outside a/d opening hours

Old 2nd Mar 2008, 09:19
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Kent, England
Age: 36
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Aircraft operating overhead outside a/d opening hours

We've had a number of complaints recently of large jet aircraft flying overhead outside the aerodrome's opening hours, between 22:00 til 03:00. Although there is a VOR at Biggin Hill, we have been told the jets have been coming down to 50 or so feet, with some locals even telling us that planes have landed in the middle of the night.
As the airport is unstaffed overnight, except for sleeping security guards, we have no way to prove or disprove this. I did speak to a pilot based at Cranfield today saying they have had similar claims, believed to be military helicopters.
Two questions. Firstly, what is the likelyhood of it military jets "buzzing" the airfield, and secondly, what height are aircraft legally allowed to operate down to outside of an airports opening hours?
luigi_m_ is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2008, 10:05
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In the world
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You should check the ANO, section 2 page 5 and 6 or post the question in the military forum.

After the airport operational hours, at Biggin Hill anyway, ATC have no involvement of what goes on, what those aircraft which may be exempt from the low flying rule do in Glass G airspace is their business .

At the end of the day, outside the operational times published in the AIP when the airport is closed, the ATZ is in-active so, providing aircraft obey the relevant rules of the air then that’s up to them. It would be different if the airport were in CAS or (or a Government AD) or were listed as active H24.

Of course if low flying or landings/takeoffs are really taking place out of hours (which I doubt they are) then let’s hope nobody attempts it on the 26th April!
http://www.bigginhillairport.com/ANT_pr1.pdf
Dizzee Rascal is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2008, 12:51
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Luigi.. Large jet aircraft don't come down to 50 ft in the dark over an unlit civil aerodrome! Where do people dream up this nonsense?? In any event, ATC would know almost certainly about any movements (ATC in that area is provided from the London Terminal Control at Swanwick).

Police helicopters operate throughout the night and may well fly very low. Perhaps one of those was seen/heard??

I just read Luigi's profile - I can't believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2008, 16:27
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In the world
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
With respect HD, "ATC in that area" as you put it do not know about every flight taking place, as I said, the area which luigi is referring to is class G where we all know and expect all types of flights to operate at any time of the day or night unknown to any ATSUs.

I doubt movements are taking place after the normal hours at Biggin Hill and I doubt large jets are coming down to 50ft. What these local people are seeing as they crawl out of the The Crown pub at 2am is more likely than not to be one of the 2 or 3 police helicopters chasing stolen cars between (the well known to the poilce ASU) New Addington council estate and Biggin Hill below 500ft as they are entitled to do as they are exempt from the low flying rule. If it is not the police, it might well be the military on a low level night sortie using the VOR (owned and operated by NATS) who are also exempt from some of the ANO or aircraft in the Biggin hold for Heathrow at a level not at all low.

When they say "large jets" I wonder how large they mean?

If the local residents seriously belive that movements are taking place then perhaps Bromley council should review their own CCTV recordings that they are rumored to have installed around the airport to keep track of out of hours movements!

Luigi, when you posted this had you just crawled out of the The Crown?
Dizzee Rascal is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2008, 17:54
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dizzee.... Let's put it this way... if there was any aerial activity around Biggin Hill in the middle of the night ATCOs at TC would become curious. I sat in front of the radar for many, many years and you get used to what shouldn't be happening. OK, low cover of the NATS radars doesn't go down to 50ft at Biggin, but you'd sure see it before it descended that low. The police helicopters talk to Heathrow Director all night so ATC knows where they are..

It's beyond all belief that there would be a number of such incidents without ATC knowledge. Believe me, if anything untoward happens the phones start ringing....
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2008, 08:13
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Wildest Surrey
Age: 75
Posts: 10,799
Received 90 Likes on 63 Posts
We used to get complaints of out of hours movements at my airfield.
Solution? Switch the ILS off when you go home, you'll find it works wonders!!
chevvron is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2008, 20:45
  #7 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Kent, England
Age: 36
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Chillout HD, I'm just relaying comments from the local wildlife at Biggin and happened to ask what the regulations are surrounding flights outwide a/d hours, read the question numbnuts.

Dizzee, you know you'll never catch me with an alcoholic beverage in my hand, what do you think I am, a pilot...
luigi_m_ is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2008, 08:48
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
luigi... Thank you for your extreme rudeness, which sums up what sort of person you must be. Thankfully, ALL the ATCAs I ever worked with were polite, good-humoured professionals for whom I had extremely high regard.

My response to you was, I thought, good humoured. If you are really employed in ATC you should not have to ask such questions on here - talk to the ATCOs you work with or to Thames Radar or Heathrow on the phone. Best of all - go and visit TC and sit with the guys there. They'll tell you that no large jet aircraft is going to come down to 50 ft over Biggin Hill at night and military jets don't go bombing around the TMA beating up airfields either. They used to, but that's many years ago and they were always under ATC control..
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2008, 13:04
  #9 (permalink)  
niknak
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There is a possibillity, remote as it is, that the airport owners have given permission for the MOD to use the airfield out of hours.
At civillian airports I've worked at in the past, this has taken place (and still does), the a/c are usually C130s and operated on a lights out/NVG basis.
I once waited up for them and aside from an initial disturbance there was hardly any noise & you'd certainly never know they'd been unless you'd seen them.
I know that Biggin is noise sensitive etc, but this sort of activity is not usually subject to planning by laws, so they could get away with it.

Luigi

HD may be old, but I'm sure that his nuts are probably far more experienced than yours and that they haven't shrivelled up just yet
niknak is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2008, 14:11
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Hi Niknak.. Trust you're well. I had heard of such arrangements, but would doubt if it happened at Biggin without TC knowing about it. In the dark of the night there ain't much to do and the sudden appearance of something hefty on the radar would stimulate great interest. If it then disappeared over Biggin, reappearing a few seconds later people would get very interested and the matter would be investigated. Of that I am certain. If the Biggin aerodrome owners approved such activity it would have to be "known" by TC.

We used to have F-111s doing fly-bys at Heathrow in the middle of the night.. until one dumped fuel and lit it up with the reheat one night. Everything hit the fan big time!!
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2008, 14:36
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Age: 51
Posts: 171
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts


Did it bust the noise limits HD?
Flightman is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2008, 15:48
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just slightly... 1 or 2 db!!! I didn't see that episode, but I did get involved in a couple of Tankbusters one night - great fun (for us).
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2008, 18:52
  #13 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,561
Received 402 Likes on 210 Posts
I did get involved in a couple of Tankbusters one night
....rather sounds like a saturday morning confession after a good night out in Newcastle
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2008, 19:22
  #14 (permalink)  

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The radars are still being recorded overnight.

Get some accurate times from those doing the complaining then ask your manager to ask TC if they can check the replay for anything strange going on.

Unless it's somewhat stealthy it should show up.

In the last few weeks there have been various calibration a/c for various services (as in ILS or VOR, not military) flying past Biggin during the night period but they're not large, not noisy and they don't go down to 50ft. Well not over Biggin anyway.

Whilst those of us that do nightshifts at TC on the approach sectors don't necessarily stare fixatedly at the radar if we don't have to i.e. none of our own traffic about, we are looking at it often enough to notice unusual goings on and I haven't myself seen nor heard anyone else mention such shenanigans.
Roffa is offline  
Old 4th Mar 2008, 20:47
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: In the world
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Get some accurate times from those doing the complaining then ask your manager to ask TC if they can check the replay for anything strange going on.
No need to give NATS any more money, we record the radar* ourselves!

The LL 23cm which, after trials was (IIRC) deemed to be the most appropriate for low level cover around this area.
Dizzee Rascal is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2008, 07:49
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dizzee.... So Biggin records the radar H24??
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2008, 08:00
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
HD,

At that time of night Thames Radar is not manned and Heathrow are usually 'resting their eyes'.
Phoning either for info about what happened, or more likely didn't happen a few days previous during the wee small hours would be no use!

Another slightly more feasible option is a Fat Albert on NVGs doing an approach... possible, probably unlikely, but more feasible than jets at 50'.
anotherthing is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2008, 08:58
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
anotherthing..... I know, but people are there and some guys are watching the radar (TMA south?) and something as has been discussed would be noticed. Do you imagine a Herc would go wandering around that part of the LTMA without talking to anyone?
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2008, 09:06
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A Fat Albert from 47 Sqn RAF would be more than capable... enuff said
anotherthing is offline  
Old 5th Mar 2008, 10:02
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Berkshire, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 8,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well, I'd take a great deal of convincing that it wouldn't be "seen", and if it wasn't seen by ATC the phones would be ringing from the stock-broker belt!
HEATHROW DIRECTOR is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.