ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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1) Said person in tower is Tower rated elsewhere, so quickest route to go live is to revalidate on a current rating, wouldn't you think?
2) The people are needed everywhere.This Tower body will free up a Multi-rated ATCO, to provide ATS with their other ratings in the busy UACC/ACC.
2) The people are needed everywhere.This Tower body will free up a Multi-rated ATCO, to provide ATS with their other ratings in the busy UACC/ACC.
I am not the only one who sees this as simply playing musical chairs.
The net result being a fat 0 gain at Shannon tower. A loss if one includes the training requirement and the loss of an experienced ATCO.
The IAA may do the recruiting but the influence of the union bruvers keeps their hands firmly tied. You only have to look at where all the union reps go to after their years of "service" to the bruverhood!
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: May 2006
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Same old same old when it comes to dfc!
.
Yes Dfc you are seeing it wrong......again!
The DE who is tower rated elsewhere will check out quickest in the tower here-stands to reason. That will free a multi rated controller to work in the center. But the important thing that you forget dfc, is that mlti rated controller STILL has their tower rating and so there is a gain of one in the tower.
Most Atco's are multi rated/talented and that is how we run things so cheaply and efficiently-in that a controller could be in a radar postion in the morning and in the tower in the afternoon depending on rating and staffing requirements. Its a bit complex so i don't expect you to understand it.
The only "fat 0 gain" is between your ears
This whole situation blew up because of the fact that our staffing numbers were so low(but soon to be fixed) that on occasion there would be no-one with a tower rating (just for example) rosterd on. Or there might have been one tower rated controller on who also had a radar rating that was also in short supply and so the choice was to either close the tower or close the center fl245 and below. The course of lesser consequence was obviuosly to close the tower and keep the center open.
Really dfc-just another one of your conspiracy theories. Once again you demonstrate the fact that you are incapable of accepting any information that does not agree with your own pre-conceived idiotic notions.
Explain how the union exactly is tieing the company's hands when it comes to recruitment? Id love to hear to hear your thoughts on that one. You made the statement above now back it up with evidence......come on then.
From where im standing the staff/union have secured 22 to 24 DE's that the company would not have bothered with. The staff/union secured a 50% increase in the current SCP class. And if the for whatever reason the number of DE's does not meet the target then we have the option of starting the next class early. Thats my evidence-where is yours??????
If you come on here posting in such a condescending manner without anything to back your opinions up,it just shows what an opinionated condescending idiot you are.
Your total lack of knowledge and solid info is astounding. What makes it even more astounding is that people like Macker,Irishatco et al are doing and have done their best to educate you. You are apparently beyond education and seem destined to forever be the dumass here.
Yours as ever
Ock1f
Let me see if I have this correct. The IAA claim they are short of ATCOs "everywhere". The answer is to have a direct entry ATCO recruited and trained at a position to "free up" a controller already doing that position to go elsewhere.
I am not the only one who sees this as simply playing musical chairs.
The net result being a fat 0 gain at Shannon tower
I am not the only one who sees this as simply playing musical chairs.
The net result being a fat 0 gain at Shannon tower
Yes Dfc you are seeing it wrong......again!
The DE who is tower rated elsewhere will check out quickest in the tower here-stands to reason. That will free a multi rated controller to work in the center. But the important thing that you forget dfc, is that mlti rated controller STILL has their tower rating and so there is a gain of one in the tower.
Most Atco's are multi rated/talented and that is how we run things so cheaply and efficiently-in that a controller could be in a radar postion in the morning and in the tower in the afternoon depending on rating and staffing requirements. Its a bit complex so i don't expect you to understand it.
The only "fat 0 gain" is between your ears
This whole situation blew up because of the fact that our staffing numbers were so low(but soon to be fixed) that on occasion there would be no-one with a tower rating (just for example) rosterd on. Or there might have been one tower rated controller on who also had a radar rating that was also in short supply and so the choice was to either close the tower or close the center fl245 and below. The course of lesser consequence was obviuosly to close the tower and keep the center open.
The IAA may do the recruiting but the influence of the union bruvers keeps their hands firmly tied. You only have to look at where all the union reps go to after their years of "service" to the bruverhood
Explain how the union exactly is tieing the company's hands when it comes to recruitment? Id love to hear to hear your thoughts on that one. You made the statement above now back it up with evidence......come on then.
From where im standing the staff/union have secured 22 to 24 DE's that the company would not have bothered with. The staff/union secured a 50% increase in the current SCP class. And if the for whatever reason the number of DE's does not meet the target then we have the option of starting the next class early. Thats my evidence-where is yours??????
If you come on here posting in such a condescending manner without anything to back your opinions up,it just shows what an opinionated condescending idiot you are.
Your total lack of knowledge and solid info is astounding. What makes it even more astounding is that people like Macker,Irishatco et al are doing and have done their best to educate you. You are apparently beyond education and seem destined to forever be the dumass here.
Yours as ever
Ock1f
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The idea of doing over time or being overworked is supposed to be dnagerous but you say it is OK to;
Most Atco's are multi rated/talented and that is how we run things so cheaply and efficiently-in that a controller could be in a radar postion in the morning and in the tower in the afternoon depending on rating and staffing requirements
You have no evidence.
Dream on my friend. It would take 2 years minimum for those to materialise even if suitable ones could be found. If 10 new members of staff validate in the next year and a half you can count yourself lucky.
Come back when you
a) Can show that there are 22 DE ATCOs validated.
and
b) You can appreciate someone who has dug you out of a hole and saved your ass. You were not so quick to call a "dumb ass" then were you?
Regards,
DFC
Most Atco's are multi rated/talented and that is how we run things so cheaply and efficiently-in that a controller could be in a radar postion in the morning and in the tower in the afternoon depending on rating and staffing requirements
22 to 24 DE's
Come back when you
a) Can show that there are 22 DE ATCOs validated.
and
b) You can appreciate someone who has dug you out of a hole and saved your ass. You were not so quick to call a "dumb ass" then were you?
Regards,
DFC
Join Date: May 2006
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Dfc-whoever said that working both in morning and afternoon is dangerous.? Its our normal working day. Where did i mention overtime? Where did mention being overworked? If the work is outside the working week and is excessive its wrong ,dangerous and unsafe-but only then.
I really dont get what you are harping on about. We turn up in the morning go home in the late afternnon and fully expect to work those hours in between. With the required fatigue breaks of course. So how is that dangerous and unsafe. Come on put a cohesive arguemnet together if you can.
.
For what exactly?
There will be 4 De done by the end of the summer at the latest. Not a bad start.
The 22 to 24 DE's is in writing between the company and ourselves. Its there in black in white. On paper. Evidence enough. With permanent positions on offer its should be quite attractive to enough people with more than a few years under their belt. And the contract side of it makes it quite good for the ones who want to see this side of the world for a few years. The terms and conditions on both aren't bad at all.
If the required number of DE's dont for whatever reason show up we have the option of pulling in the next class of SCp's early. Of course we would prefer the DE's but we have a back up at least.
So as soon as the IAA get the finger out and recruit and advertise then at the moment its looking pretty good.
You still have to explain why you are so openly hostile to all things IAA and specifically to controllers.?
Yours as ever
Ock1f
PS-i take each of your posts individually-i have complemented you before on some excellent posting and berated you for some terrible posting. One thing for sure is there is never a dull moment when DFc is around
I really dont get what you are harping on about. We turn up in the morning go home in the late afternnon and fully expect to work those hours in between. With the required fatigue breaks of course. So how is that dangerous and unsafe. Come on put a cohesive arguemnet together if you can.
You have no evidence
For what exactly?
There will be 4 De done by the end of the summer at the latest. Not a bad start.
The 22 to 24 DE's is in writing between the company and ourselves. Its there in black in white. On paper. Evidence enough. With permanent positions on offer its should be quite attractive to enough people with more than a few years under their belt. And the contract side of it makes it quite good for the ones who want to see this side of the world for a few years. The terms and conditions on both aren't bad at all.
If the required number of DE's dont for whatever reason show up we have the option of pulling in the next class of SCp's early. Of course we would prefer the DE's but we have a back up at least.
So as soon as the IAA get the finger out and recruit and advertise then at the moment its looking pretty good.
You still have to explain why you are so openly hostile to all things IAA and specifically to controllers.?
Yours as ever
Ock1f
PS-i take each of your posts individually-i have complemented you before on some excellent posting and berated you for some terrible posting. One thing for sure is there is never a dull moment when DFc is around
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Reality check
So I count 3 Direct entries so far, 1 in Shannon tower, 2 waiting for a Shannon High Level course.
And with 1 starting in May, adds up to 4 I guess but not by the end of March 2008.
No military (Irish I presume) allowed for whatever reason reduces the pool of possible Direct entries. And I hear local civil possiblities have asked for and received a significant pay rise...
Have the IAA advertised for any direct entries yet?
Its going to be a long Summer or two or three or four...
And with 1 starting in May, adds up to 4 I guess but not by the end of March 2008.
No military (Irish I presume) allowed for whatever reason reduces the pool of possible Direct entries. And I hear local civil possiblities have asked for and received a significant pay rise...
Have the IAA advertised for any direct entries yet?
Its going to be a long Summer or two or three or four...
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The Numbers Game.....
Approx 6 Direct Entries so far for Shannon and 2 for Dublin along with wholesale roster changes(All for the better may I add) and an advertisement campaign to kick off very shortly now that all issues have been balloted on and accepted. There has been an increasing amount of interest for both the permanent direct entry and contract schemes despite the lack of advertisements.Amazing what word of mouth can do.DFC please dont bother applying.The thought of you eating so much humble pie sickens me. So the ball is now firmly rolling in the right direction and it would appear that it will only gather momentum as the months go by.No one was ever under the illusion that we would get a mass exodus from other ANSP's immediately but to have 8 without an ad in Flight ,well not bad.By the way dont forget the ATCO's released back into OPS from C+T as a result of the new instructors.
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Who's confused DFC
This is what we thought was wrong and how we wanted it fixed:
http://www.impact.ie/iopen24/pub/new...ewsdesk_id=112
This is what the LRC said
http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=457
(and I used the IAA's own website to prove honesty and fairness)
Results would indicate that the LRC agreed with us. Which goes to show that the best way for the IAA to be managed going forward is through the input of staff (all staff). Not the micro-managed, penny-pinching heretofore witnessed style.
All that remains is the minutae to be hammered out. From this point forward the service we provide is both safer for pilots and controllers.
New controllers enter the ranks as normal, DE's enter the ranks at a point relative to years of experience they bring. The only bar on progression is that one must have 2 years experience with the IAA before any new level can be achieved. This is true of me, all new controllers, existing controllers and DE's. While waiting for those 2 years to pass, one still moves up the pay scale each year. The next level after 2 years pass is an optional Expert grade. All this does is move one up 1 step on the payscale and make one liable to assignment to extra duties within the company.
Example 1. New controller 1st day, point 1 on the scale
Example 2. New controller 3 yrs experience and doesn't volunteer for extra duties, 3rd point on the scale (4th if he volunteers)
Example 3. DE with 12yrs previous experience, 1st day with IAA, 12th point on scale
Example 4 DE with 14 yrs experience 2 of which with the IAA, 14th point on the scale (15th if he volunteers)
See a pattern emerging? That's because we all are treated the same.
How can you have a problem with this?
Thorisgod
http://www.impact.ie/iopen24/pub/new...ewsdesk_id=112
This is what the LRC said
http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=457
(and I used the IAA's own website to prove honesty and fairness)
Results would indicate that the LRC agreed with us. Which goes to show that the best way for the IAA to be managed going forward is through the input of staff (all staff). Not the micro-managed, penny-pinching heretofore witnessed style.
All that remains is the minutae to be hammered out. From this point forward the service we provide is both safer for pilots and controllers.
New controllers enter the ranks as normal, DE's enter the ranks at a point relative to years of experience they bring. The only bar on progression is that one must have 2 years experience with the IAA before any new level can be achieved. This is true of me, all new controllers, existing controllers and DE's. While waiting for those 2 years to pass, one still moves up the pay scale each year. The next level after 2 years pass is an optional Expert grade. All this does is move one up 1 step on the payscale and make one liable to assignment to extra duties within the company.
Example 1. New controller 1st day, point 1 on the scale
Example 2. New controller 3 yrs experience and doesn't volunteer for extra duties, 3rd point on the scale (4th if he volunteers)
Example 3. DE with 12yrs previous experience, 1st day with IAA, 12th point on scale
Example 4 DE with 14 yrs experience 2 of which with the IAA, 14th point on the scale (15th if he volunteers)
See a pattern emerging? That's because we all are treated the same.
How can you have a problem with this?
Thorisgod
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From this point forward the service we provide is both safer for pilots....
Never seen any evidence of it being unsafe. So what has happened to back up a claim of it being safer than before?
The same overtime requirements and so called lack of staff as there was in January and now a training requirement on top.
Direct entries need training and consolidation, students require extensive training and how many trainees will there be if you have 24 direct entries quickly followed by 2 large student classes?
You must have plenty of spare staff available to do that extra training........or will they do that as overtime.
How long before OJTI's start complaining that they are spending too much time training?
Never mind DE recruitment. Where is the training recruitment?????
---------
Gentleman's agreement = recruit the ex militaire from the regionals and have the current military go there. They will have validated civil experience long before the IAA have recruited 22 DEs and thus will be able to apply
Regards,
DFC
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DFC-Please Read(or get someone else to decipher)
qnhhpa-no info yet on start dates for direct entries for Dub. DFC-If you know anyone who can decipher English for you,please ask them to do so.Incidentally,scrap my idea of you applying to the IAA.You aint got a snowballs chance of passing the Language Proficiency Test and by the way to allay some of your concerns about the extra training,extra instructors have already been hired on a contractual basis for C+T,thus as I have already stated,releasing operational ATCO's back into the live enviornment.Also a class of 36 SCP's need only 36 OJTI's to train them.Imagine that!There are more than enough OJTI's in Shannon to meet that requirement so as far as your concern about them being overworked,well it may take about 2-3 years to train someone of your calibre but thank God someone of your intelligence would not even make it past the first round of interviews.
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DFC,
you've been embarassing yourself since your first post, give it up you dope. As a checkie once said about someone doing rather badly' Its like watching puppies drown'.
you've been embarassing yourself since your first post, give it up you dope. As a checkie once said about someone doing rather badly' Its like watching puppies drown'.
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Safer for pilots and controllers
If no one is doing unmonitored and disproportionate amounts of overtime, then the likelyhood of an incident is greatly reduced. Wouldn't you agree DFC? Even you have to concede that point.
As for training: As we have a core of dedicated training staff in the school along with some Operational ATCOs, then hiring retirees to train students frees up the ATCOs for Ops. When the trainees (DE or students) enter the Ops environment they will be assigned an OJTI (On the Job Training Instructor) and work parallel to that OJTI in a live environment with the "control" of the sector slowly being passed over from the OJTI to the trainee over a period of days, weeks or months. While this is happening the OJTI and his/her trainee are counted as 1 person available on the operational roster. When the trainee "checks out" they can perform on their own (with the possible exception of not allowing 2 newly rated people to sit in the same sector)
At no time in this process has the number of operational ATCOs decreased. In fact it is steadily rising, eroding the need for overtime.
If you are a pilot, do you want to be controlled by (A)someone who has worked 8 day shifts and 4 night shifts in the previous 14 days, or would you prefer (B) a well rested and mentaly fit controller whose hours are monitored so fatigue is removed from the equation?
A simple answer please, (A) or (B)
As for training: As we have a core of dedicated training staff in the school along with some Operational ATCOs, then hiring retirees to train students frees up the ATCOs for Ops. When the trainees (DE or students) enter the Ops environment they will be assigned an OJTI (On the Job Training Instructor) and work parallel to that OJTI in a live environment with the "control" of the sector slowly being passed over from the OJTI to the trainee over a period of days, weeks or months. While this is happening the OJTI and his/her trainee are counted as 1 person available on the operational roster. When the trainee "checks out" they can perform on their own (with the possible exception of not allowing 2 newly rated people to sit in the same sector)
At no time in this process has the number of operational ATCOs decreased. In fact it is steadily rising, eroding the need for overtime.
If you are a pilot, do you want to be controlled by (A)someone who has worked 8 day shifts and 4 night shifts in the previous 14 days, or would you prefer (B) a well rested and mentaly fit controller whose hours are monitored so fatigue is removed from the equation?
A simple answer please, (A) or (B)
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Did anyone see a completed deal yet?
This mantra of nothing is agreed til .... etc
In the meantime, the IAA are having the best of everything, some manner of harmony, situation, as was, prior to all this. Why should they be in any hurry to do something, its cheaper this way.
Why is there no push from our union to get everything sorted.
There should have been, and should still be a time limit on this.
Its all very quiet on both sides at the minute?
Anyone any info?
This mantra of nothing is agreed til .... etc
In the meantime, the IAA are having the best of everything, some manner of harmony, situation, as was, prior to all this. Why should they be in any hurry to do something, its cheaper this way.
Why is there no push from our union to get everything sorted.
There should have been, and should still be a time limit on this.
Its all very quiet on both sides at the minute?
Anyone any info?
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Surely your not suprised by the limited movement in this regard
What i am finding surprising is that the union is very quiet. There were a lot of dissenting voices both here and in Ops for a time. It seems that people have lost their voices - therefore the union sits on its hands.
Still no ad for DEs. Every other ANSP has the jump on us in this regard
You got it in one .... same ol' same ol'
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Anyone who continues to reply to DFC i consider in the same level of intelligence as DFC.
Do you not realise that this moron only wants attention.
We all know how you get annoying screaming babies to shut up you ignore them.
He has babbled on for the last 3 months you cannot educate him he simply doesn't want to be educated he only wants to incite people.
He is the Winner you are the loser.
Please just ignore him and desist from responding to him. Continuing on with the argument doesn't help lads/lassie's.
Do you not realise that this moron only wants attention.
We all know how you get annoying screaming babies to shut up you ignore them.
He has babbled on for the last 3 months you cannot educate him he simply doesn't want to be educated he only wants to incite people.
He is the Winner you are the loser.
Please just ignore him and desist from responding to him. Continuing on with the argument doesn't help lads/lassie's.
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Patience is a virtue........
Union had a meeting with management over the last few days to tie up some loose ends.Ads within a fortnight,new improved roster in May,8 Direct Entries so far(with many more applicants currently being processed),36 Cadets in training,New Call-In scheme albeit slightly behind schedule as a result of a late request from Dub management,Overtime restrictions .......and more....The list will grow as the months go by and all for the greater good.The trick now is to ensure that all the items agreed are implemented in full.
